I would like to change
how kindness is
perceived in our job as
researchers, as future
professors,
but also in general
within society.
I mean that usually in
general kindness, I
think, unfortunately, is
associated
with weakness.
So I think that if you
are kind, people assume
that you're weak.
Also in your job, you
often can hear people
say, "You're too kind,
you're way too kind,
you should be more
harsh, you should be a
bit more aggressive in
the way you
do your job."
May this job be talking
with students or, I
don't know, engaging
with other professors.
You are expected to be
not kind because
kindness is seen as
something that makes you
weak and less
respectable.
Martina is doing a PhD
in Rome at the Sapienza
and LUISS University in
cyber security.
She told me that she has
20 cats. Yes, 20 cats.
I don't know if that's
one of the reasons she
wanted to talk about
kindness today,
but listen to this very
first episode
to find out soon.
How come kindness is
associated? Because it's
true. I mean, also for
me, I have this
association sometimes
that also we have this
in French, we say it's
"Robentreaucon" which
basically means "too
good, too stupid, too
nice, too stupid."
But why is that? I mean,
how come there's such
association?
I think if we are
talking about the field
that we are in, if we
want to get a
bit more specific,
I think when you think
about a famous
professor, I think you
imagine someone that is
very strict in his work,
someone who worked hard
to get where it is and
to do so, he had to make
sacrifices,
and often these
sacrifices are assumed
to be connected with.
Try to be stronger than
the events that you have
to face in your life.
So for instance, being a
professor we know is
super hard because once
you do the PhD,
you have to publish a
lot. If you don't
publish, you don't get
recognition and then you
cannot even access the
the resources to be a
professor. And so we
think that by being
kind, the chances that
you have to rise
are also lower because
the more challenges you
have to face, the more
strong you have to be.
Basically, you need to
have a... I don't
remember the English
word exactly, but
"taukskin" like "heart".
And maybe that's why you
shouldn't be nice
because nice, maybe at
the end,
would you say that
being nice is associated
with being sensitive and
instead you should be
not sensitive and have a
hard taukskin and just
go your way without...
Yeah, basically
according to this, you
should not care
about other people and
you should just go your
way and try to get
there, no
matter the cost.
But I think that if we
are kind, we also have
to think about what
other people
may be facing.
Maybe we don't know what
they are facing because
they don't tell us. So
it's all about empathy.
And I've been told a lot
of times in these two
years as being like a
PhD, but also as a tutor
for courses, that you're
way too kind to do this
job. And at first, it
hurt me a bit because I
started thinking, maybe
I should change, I need
to grow up and start to
be a little less nice to
people. But then I like
asked myself, do I
really want these
changes in me? Do I
really need this
change? Am I the
problem? Or maybe the
problem is that being
nice is associated with
something that
is actually not true. I
personally believe that
I, and I hope that I can
achieve all my
aims in life without
having to discourage
other people, without
having to put other
people down
just for the sake of
achieving my aim. That's
very
interesting. So for example,
so we are talking about
academia. I think there
is the same, for
example, in politics,
politicians. It's like
if you want to be on the
top, become the
president, being elected
or something,
you need to be
hard-tasking. I don't
know that expression. So
there is the
same. And I imagine
in many kinds of
careers. And my question
is then, if someone is
ambitious and wants to
have the really
top position, do you
think that at the end,
for that kind of aim,
they should
somehow not always
be so nice? Or do you
think that because you
say, I understand this,
that you hope
you can achieve
all your aims, keeping
your nice qualities. And
I mean, this is because
maybe you
have some kind of
aims that are not the
most ambitious top one
to be, for example,
president of the
country. And do
you think that for a
very ambitious position
like that, actually,
yes, indeed,
at some point,
you shouldn't be nice.
Or do you think that
even to be president of
the country,
we can be...
Imagine if actually a
president of a country
was nice. Yeah, maybe it
could also be
a better model,
I think, as someone that
we can actually relate
to. And yeah, often
ambition is like
associated with
wanting to reach the top
and doing everything
that you can to reach
it. But I think it's
also a matter
on how we see ambition.
So maybe my ambition is
not to become the president of, I don't know,
something. But even if
my ambition was that, I
would not compromise my
understanding of how a
human being should
behave with other human
beings. Also, I think
that a lot of
politicians,
unfortunately, nowadays
that want to reach the
top, tend to be like
obnoxious and super
excessive in
their behaviors, also to
attract maybe more
extremist views. And sometimes they say,
super crazy stuff just
to get attention. But
then I think we don't
really know in the end,
even if they reach their
ambitions, we don't know
how really do they feel.
Maybe they
appear as happy
to have reached their
ambitions, but in the
end, they feel shitty
because they
know that they are
not being nice. Yeah,
for sure. I mean, acting
like this, I don't think
it promotes like a good
atmosphere, let's say.
People just... This
creates more violence,
let's say, in a
way. And it also
normalizes this
behavior. Yeah. So I
have an idea about that.
Actually, I'm thinking
of something
related before having
this conversation that
maybe in society,
because I would like to
know where does
it come from, that some
people are nice, some
people are not nice.
Because with
this idea that
I had is that some part
of the population,
basically, we have
certain personality,
characteristics,
whatever. And we tend to
care less about others,
to be more resilient and
more into leadership
power, etc. and less
about empathy, nice
kindness. And some
people on the opposite,
they are more into
kindness. And I was
wondering about that. Do
you think that there is
some... Where
does it come
from that some people
are nicer than others?
Is it something
artificial or
natural? I think that
obviously, the first
moments when we
understand what is nice
means is maybe
when we are small,
when we are small
children. Yeah. We
relate to other people
that are like
us. And we start to
realize that some
people, even if they are
small human beings, they
are not nice. Like I
don't think
that being nice is
something that we are
born with. It's also a
matter of our
personal character,
but it's also a matter
of education. I think I
was very lucky with my
family because
they tried...
Like they are people
that aimed to have an
happy life, just a
normal happy life with a
good family,
like simple life, not
extra ambitious life.
And when growing up,
they taught me
this, that to be
happy doesn't mean that
you have to reach the
top. Maybe you reach the
middle of the stair,
but if you reach that
middle and you still are
true to yourself, then
it is a happy life. And
when I grew up and I
started relating to
people of my age, also
in my teenage years, I
sometimes had
difficulties to relate
to them, to a lot of
stuff. Like also with
girls, I had
maybe a bit of
difficulties to relating
to what they were doing
in their teenage years.
And I always tried to be
nice to them and none of
them was nice to me. And
then in that moment,
maybe I
thought to myself
that I was wrong, maybe
I should be like them, I
should be a little less
nice and
just behave like
them. A bit more bitchy.
A bit more bitchy, yes,
because it was easier.
Because if I
was like that,
then I could relate more
to them, I could do the
stuff that they... And
this created
a lot of hurt
within me because I was
just a teenager, an
insecure teenager, so I
didn't know how I had to
behave in society. But
then I also was lucky
enough to find friends
that were
like me. So maybe
we were the underdogs,
you know, we were not
like the others, but we
were nice to
each other and
that was it. But I don't
think that you are born
nice or not nice, it
also depends
on the context
where you grow up. So
you say it also depends.
So just to clarify, do
you think there is a bit
a part of being born
like this or not? And
then education makes the
most of it?
Or do you think
that there is only
education and not at all
the role of genetics?
No, I think
the most part is
education and relations
to your... Not
necessarily to your
family because then you
detach from it,
but the relations with
your group of pairs, for
people of your age. But
then, yeah, maybe there
are some people that are
most likely to be nice
when they are born and
some people
that are not.
But yeah, definitely I
think the most comes
from society. Yeah. And
so why do you
think it would be
important to bring more
kindness in the
workplace, in academia
or in politics or
whatever work?
Well, if we think about
academia, we all know
that is a bit of a toxic
environment.
Like we are very happy
to do this career. I
mean, it's the best
because we love doing
research and
we can do it in this
environment. But at the
same time, we have a lot
of pressure on ourselves
to perform, to be great
in what we do, even if
it's our first
experience in
doing it, because we
are just learning how to
do research. And if we
are hopefully going to
become
professors, I think
a professor should teach
his students something.
And this might be every
discipline on the world,
politics, international
relations, political
philosophy, what you
want. But in the end,
even if you are talking
to students, you are
also talking with people
that may be
facing issues in
their life. So when I
think of myself as a
professor in the future,
I hope that I can be
a person that my
students can rely on,
not just for just doing
a lecture and going
home. And that's
it. So I think kindness
in academia is important
for this to educate also
our students, that it's
possible to reach that
level of ambition and
become a professor,
which is a high
achievement in your
career, but also doing
it without compromising
your values as a person.
So it's not true that
every professor is not
replying to you or that
is maybe angry all the
time or is
not available.
Maybe there are also,
unfortunately, there are
also people that are
like this. So
the reason it's
true that you can do it.
And do you think in
other sectors and
academia also
that would be
better to bring? Yeah,
definitely. Because I
know, because
cybersecurity is a field
that also covers
the corporate sector. I
know a lot of young
professionals that do
corporate
jobs. And every
time they tell me that
everyone is so angry all
the time and rude. Maybe
you do a job
for the first
time and they don't tell
you, look, this job,
it's nice because but it
has some
problems and you
should fix this. You can
improve this. You can
change this. They just
destroy what
you're doing.
And I ask myself, is
this really helpful in
making the job better or
does it create
anxiety, stress,
and also like you are
not liking the job that
you do because you know
that you are going to be
offended by someone that
is on the top position.
So I don't think it's
productive in
terms of work.
Also, think of, I don't
know, everyone I think
in our experience had at
one point of their life
a professor that was not
so nice. No, it happened
to me during my bachelor
back in Florence. I was
doing my first exam in
political science, which
is now a topic that I
love. And I
was doing this
exam with this professor
who is a very renowned
professor. And obviously
I was super nervous
because it was my first
oral exam at university.
And I remember he asked
me something about
elections in Italy, how
the system works. And I
panicked because I
remember I could not
understand this
proportional system of
elections in Italy. And
he told me, you
should go back to
elementary school. And
it is clear that your
parents are like stupid
people. Oh gosh, that's
terrible. It's terrible.
And I remember I went
home and I started
crying and I
wanted to give
up university because
it's not like, how is
this encouraging me to
study better
for that topic?
And you have to realize
that this is a 65 old
man telling this to a
20, no 19
years young woman
who is just trying to
understand what she
wants to do with her
life. And now I
am a PhD student.
So I think that I have
reached the confidence
to understand that I can
do research.
But back in the
day, I was like, why can
this professor not be
nice to me? Even if I am
not doing the job and
I was not good in that
oral exam, it's clear
because I was too
insecure. But
at the same time,
why? What's the point of
saying to someone,
breaking them like this?
Like it's not even
going to help. It's not
even going to encourage
you to study more or
something at the
total opposite.
And so for example,
taking that example,
let's try to put
ourselves in
their shoes because if
they behave like this,
there must be some kind
of reason. Like why
would someone say that?
I don't know. I think
you have to think about
his 65. Obviously, when
he started
his PhD or his
academic career, things
were different. Maybe he
was taught by his
superior that
he had to be,
you know, strong and
everything to reach that
level. And once you
reach that level,
you achieved your
ambition and you feel
like you can have the
power to behave like
this to young
students. So maybe it's
a matter of also of
power dynamics and the
way they are perceived
in society,
especially by elderly
men, I think in Italy
also. So I mean, I'm
connecting the dots.
You've told
me many things. And at
the end, what I think
that I see is that you
said people,
okay, they can be
nicer or less, of
course, by maybe a bit a
part of genics or
whatever, but
mostly by education.
And then we're talking
about in this example,
someone who also learned
by the example of
previous people who told
them how to do. So it
seems that there it's
always something that we
learn from experience in
our education. So young
also in society because
we see how things work.
And we are told that
this is how things
should work, etc. So we
reproduce what
we see around
this basically. Yeah. So
because this podcast is
entitled One Change in
the World, because
actually it comes from a
quote, which is wrongly
attributed to Gandhi,
but it's supposed to be
Gandhi, who was saying
it be the change he
wants to see in the
world. So my question
there is, what
would be one solution
for that? I would like
we try to think about
that. And then
how us at the
individual level, we
could actually go toward
that. So if this is
something that
we learn from
experience from what's
around us from society,
it's kind of hard maybe
as an
individual person to do
something. So do you see
any solution for that
kind of problem of
kindness in
general? Well,
I think that first it
has to start with an
individual reflection,
like even no matter the
aim that we have in
life, no matter the
achievements that we
want to arrive to,
we have to reflect on
ourselves. So I think
that for me, the most
important part
is that when I
go to sleep at the end
of the day, I want to
think that I am a good
person. So
even if I am not
doing the most, because
to do that, that I would
have to I don't know,
treat someone
badly or just,
you know, take advantage
of another person, I'm
not going to do that.
Because at
the end of the
day, I want to go to
sleep and think I was a
good person. I was nice,
because then
I cannot live
with myself. And in our
life, we are forced to
live with just one
person, which
is ourselves.
And forever and ever. So
I want to be happy with
myself. So at the
individual
level, this is very
important. And how can
we do it? Think about in
our field, we are young
scholars, we are going,
we are given the
opportunity also to
relate to young
students. It's always
important to remember
that unfortunately, we
have always to have a
level of detachment from
people. So yeah, just
one minute, I'm gonna
first. So it's the first
time I'm recording. So
of course, there was a
technical problem. And
we like storage, but now
we're back. So we were
talking about maybe some
solutions at the level
of society at the
individual level. Yeah.
So please. So yeah, I
thought that
first we have to reflect
on ourselves. So at the
individual levels, in
our field as young,
hopefully academics, I
think it's important to
us to show a model of
relating to
students. On the
one hand, still showing
of course, a detachment,
because we are not
friends. But at
the same times,
try to engage,
understand if I don't
know everything is
clear, if we do our job
in a good way,
if we can help them. And
I think people maybe
that are doing this job
could respond to this by
saying, ah, but it's a
lot of work is
overwhelming. There are
like 200 students, we
cannot look after
each one of them. Yes,
but at the same time,
this is our job. So if
our job is being
professors and
researchers as
professors, it's our job
to take into account the
instances of
the students,
it might be difficult,
it might be draining.
But at the same time, if
we achieve the goal,
it doesn't matter that
then we can take
advantage of our power
and just don't give a
damn about what
other students are
doing. So at the
individual level, and
also I think that
behaving like this
as professors, then we
show also a model to the
students, because they
can see that
even if this
person is on top of the
chain of academia, is
still being a nice
person, maybe
they know that
you are known for being
nice to students. But
nice does not mean weak
and nice does not mean
not strict. I can be a
nice person and tell
you, you are not passing
this exam. I
can be a nice
person and doing an oral
exam and telling you I'm
sorry, you have to do
the exam. But it's not a
matter of weakness or
being, I don't know,
that easy with doing the
maximum grade
to the student
is about how you relate
to them. So we can show
this model. So what
would you say
is the difference
between being kind and
saying you don't pass
and like people thinking
that it's
not kind to say
that, you know. Because
like I can still be
respectful in my job,
like doing
the job properly
and evaluating you in a
way that is impartial.
So telling this exam is
doing great,
you are getting
the maximum grade. This
exam is not good, you
have to redo the exam.
Being honest
does not mean that
I'm not nice. It just
means that I am honest
in my job, but I'm doing
it in a nice
way. So I'm not
telling you this exam is
shit, you suck. You are
not going to make it,
you are not going to be
like you're stupid. This
is doing the job but not
in a nice way. So it's
different. And this also
helps us to understand
the difference between
being weak and being
nice. And as
I told you at
the start of the
podcast, I think that
these are associated.
But this is also true
for instance,
for being empathic or
for being sensitive.
Unfortunately, it's
often
associated with being
a weak person because a
strong person does not
cry or does not care,
but it's not true.
So at the individual
level, that would be
because indeed we learn
not to be kind
by seeing others
being not kind. But the
individual level, it
would be to show the
example, being
ourselves kind with
others to show basically
that someone can make it
and be a successful
person without being a
terrible person. At the
level of the society, do
you think that there is
one solution or it needs
to start with each
person showing the good
example? Because what
you were also describing
to me is that
most of the people, they
learn it from what they
know, but there is kind
of a cycle,
because people learn it
from before, so there's
a system there. It's
definitely a
chain of people
making up the system. So
the more individuals
make a change by
behaving in a nice way
and treating
people with more
kindness. And the more
they show that this is
not incompatible with
achieving your
goals. And it's not
incompatible also with
being competitive,
because you can be
competitive in a
supportive way and just
be nice to the
adversary. Right. So
that means that to break
this system
that forces the things
and looks to reproduce
itself all the time,
there should
be more people
who identify it as a
systematic problem and
actually make the switch
to change
it, to actually
to create a virtual
circle at the end,
because then that would
hopefully
create the virtual
cycle in the positive
sense. I think the most
important part in this
is starting to make
people understand that
it's not right to be
indifferent towards the
others. I
think that this
selfishness of being
indifferent is seen as
I'm doing what is best
for me and
then what happens
to the others, I don't
care. But I think it's
important to also
reflect on
what other people
may be facing, what
issues are they facing,
and just you don't know
who you have
in front of you
until that person opens
up to you. And it's
better to be kind to
that person than
risking to hurt
the person. Sure. And
so, I mean, we're
getting close to a nice
solution. I
want to go even,
maybe even more into
practice. Let's say that
we say that ideally
there should be
some people who
identify that's a
problem and convert by
themselves, be the
change in this
world. Do you
think that there is a
way for having more
people getting aware of
that, except
from our personal
example, I mean,
something more bigger.
Maybe there's no way.
I'm just asking like
that. Do you
think that there's a way
to make something at
greater level than just
one
individual or to make
people more aware? This
is very challenging
because how can you show
it? It's not that I can
create like a movement
of people being nice.
Maybe with this podcast.
Yeah, we can
reach out to people
that are facing the same
struggles, that maybe
are feeling that they
have to change their
personality
or their behavior in
order to achieve their
goals. Maybe I think we
have to find also
examples of
people who have already
achieved this, so that
are known for being nice
people that did that job
nicely and did not give
up on their personal
kindness. Maybe this
could be
great too. Because
I'm thinking also of one
thing, which is maybe
part of the problem that
when we are not nice,
we are, we have much
more mediatic equal, no?
So, and you mentioned it
with politicians. If you
become violent with your
opponent, political
opponent, then things go
viral. Basically,
if you have a clash,
that's gonna, you're
gonna have a buzz, you
know? Of course. And so,
maybe that's also, there
could be one thing, you
make me think, there
could be one
thing where each
person shows in, by
their example, but also
maybe reducing the
visibility of people who
act unkind.
Because having this
clash that just go viral
everywhere, viral, is
actually doing
the opposite.
Now it's bringing more
visibility, a model of
being not, and usually,
though, usually if I
understand well also,
the people who get
visibility with that,
who create a
buzz and a clash,
it's actually helping
them. They get more
elected, they get
better. So, maybe
there's a way to
reduce that visibility
or to, let's say now you
have an advantage to
create a clash.
Maybe we could
think of some solution
to create a disadvantage
when using a clash.
Yeah, when
like this kind
of behavior is not
acceptable in a field.
Also, you know, there
are Italian politicians,
one of them
currently, who is
becoming super famous,
is the mayor of Perny. I
don't remember
his name and I
don't want to name it.
Because he said very
disgusting stuff about
women when dealing about
violence towards women.
And he basically told,
if a man sees a woman
walking on the street,
he is lucky he can have
sex with her. And if
he's not, then he goes
back home. And I mean,
so it basically was
diminishing the systemic
violence against women
that is a very big issue
in Italy. Extremely
irresponsible. It's very
respectable, it's
disgusting
that a politician
also because I said have
sex, but he obviously
uses an Italian slur
that is very vulgar and
should not be used in
any context, but should
not be used against like
when you're
talking about
violence towards women
is very disrespectful
and disgusting. You
would expect
this person to just
be destroyed by the
media, to just be like
this person is just a
man that should
not be seen on
television. And instead,
he is everywhere. And
there are men telling
him how finally someone
that is saying the
things how should be
said like man to man in
this way. And
for me, it's very
like I don't either get
angry, but I get also
very sad for this man.
And it's very depressing
that he thinks that to
reach an audience, he
has to behave like this.
For that man. I mean,
at the end, he manages
because you know, he did
the best. Now you
remember it.
Even now you're
doing advertisement. So
at the end, it's
working. This is the
worst part. So maybe,
yeah, we should find
some way that it's
impossible to do that.
So maybe in the media,
there should be
some kind of I don't
know if that would be a
good idea, some kind of
censorship
about that. Maybe
censorship is a strong
word. Yeah, maybe not.
But I mean, this is my
question at
the end, how to,
because now doing this
clash, doing this super
irrespective comments is
helping is like giving
visibility. So how can
we make it this this
incentive? Like, you
know, not an incentive.
I think it's a matter of
how the system works. If
the system keeps
advantaging these
people, it's a problem.
But then how can we
change that? Would you,
for example,
would you support a law
which maybe doesn't
sense or because that
would be against
freedom of speech,
but at least maybe just
like, you know, when you
smoke a
cigarette, there's a
message written saying,
hey, you shouldn't
smoke. That's not a nice
thing. And it's not
helpful for
your health. Maybe that
should be the same kind
of message. Hey, you're
being violent and you're
respectful. Yes, it does
the best, but it's not
healthy and nice for the
society. Yeah,
could also it would be a
more nicer, a nicer
word, if that could
happen. And
also, I think
we should stop to say
sentences like, you have
to detach the person
from what he
did in his life.
For instance,
think about the
in his personal life and
his political life and
people supporting him
started to
say, how about
you should separate him
as a politician and the
entrepreneur from his as
a human being. And I
started to ask myself,
but why should I do it?
Like, I'm not saying
that. I'm
not like saying
bad things about him.
I'm just questioning why
should I make this
separation?
This is not the
way it should be done.
Like, was he a nice
person or not? Is this
the question? And
if the answer is,
you should separate,
then I think I have the
answer of the question.
That's very, very good
point. And also, yeah,
because in a way, you're
saying that at the end,
it means that that
person is not putting
kindness in the in his
work and in the system
and thus is
not helping society. No,
that's very interesting.
So thank you very much
for all these ideas. No,
and I will just make a
short summary if I may,
then you add if I forgot
something. Basically,
I try to make a very
short summary. You're
saying that we should
get more kindness
in the workplace
just because that would
just make things nicer
for everybody. That's
quite a pretty
simple reason.
And for that, you're
saying that maybe what
happens when people are
in kindness
because they learn to
be on time. And for
example, in the academic
field, but also in
politics or in other
kinds of jobs,
maybe because also you
have an incentive to be
not nice in the sense
that it's
associated, at least,
I don't know, it's
associated in people's
mind, even though it
shouldn't be
the case with the
fact that you'll get
more successful. You'll
obtain more if you are
violent with others.
Like, if you
don't respect them or
not kind enough, then
maybe you'll get more of
it. And you're
saying that it's
maybe the wrong way to
see the things. And
actually being kind is
something
that could make
you as well successful
and you don't need to
compromise on your
values to get
the aims that
you want. And then we
were thinking about the
solution. So since it's
something that we learn,
for example, of the
education when we are
young or by seeing it
around, there
would be a solution.
Help me. But then there
will be at the
individual level, of
course, to be a model.
So that some
individuals identify
what's wrong with that
system and maybe change
themselves by
their own behavior.
And then there will also
be, we started to talk
about that at the end,
the idea that at a more
systemic level, there
could actually be one
solution, which is of
course to
revert the cycle,
but also seeing that the
cycle is also encouraged
by the visibility that
is given from people
who are unkind and
therefore maybe creating
some initiatives or not
giving as much
visibility to
emptiness. Is that a
good summary? A very
good summary. Yeah.
Okay. I'm
happy. Do you have
anything to add? No, I'm
very happy with our
conversation. Okay. So
thank you very much and
see you for the second
episode another time.
The podcast is brand
new. I hope you
found this first
episode promising. And
if it's the case, please
give it the best grade
on the platform which
you're using to listen
to it. This is so
important at the
beginning. So thank you
so much for that
and see you for
the next episode.