1 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,500 I would like to change 2 01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:03,466 how kindness is 3 01:00:03,466 --> 01:00:07,166 perceived in our job as 4 01:00:07,166 --> 01:00:09,166 researchers, as future 5 01:00:09,166 --> 01:00:09,933 professors, 6 01:00:10,566 --> 01:00:12,300 but also in general 7 01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:13,199 within society. 8 01:00:14,533 --> 01:00:16,300 I mean that usually in 9 01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:17,699 general kindness, I 10 01:00:17,699 --> 01:00:19,466 think, unfortunately, is 11 01:00:19,466 --> 01:00:20,066 associated 12 01:00:20,066 --> 01:00:21,066 with weakness. 13 01:00:21,866 --> 01:00:23,099 So I think that if you 14 01:00:23,099 --> 01:00:24,766 are kind, people assume 15 01:00:24,766 --> 01:00:25,566 that you're weak. 16 01:00:26,066 --> 01:00:28,033 Also in your job, you 17 01:00:28,033 --> 01:00:29,633 often can hear people 18 01:00:29,633 --> 01:00:31,800 say, "You're too kind, 19 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:32,833 you're way too kind, 20 01:00:32,833 --> 01:00:33,633 you should be more 21 01:00:33,633 --> 01:00:35,366 harsh, you should be a 22 01:00:35,366 --> 01:00:37,633 bit more aggressive in 23 01:00:37,633 --> 01:00:38,166 the way you 24 01:00:38,166 --> 01:00:39,033 do your job." 25 01:00:39,433 --> 01:00:40,733 May this job be talking 26 01:00:40,733 --> 01:00:42,433 with students or, I 27 01:00:42,433 --> 01:00:43,300 don't know, engaging 28 01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:44,366 with other professors. 29 01:00:44,933 --> 01:00:47,333 You are expected to be 30 01:00:47,333 --> 01:00:49,133 not kind because 31 01:00:49,133 --> 01:00:50,933 kindness is seen as 32 01:00:50,933 --> 01:00:52,400 something that makes you 33 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,233 weak and less 34 01:00:53,233 --> 01:00:53,833 respectable. 35 01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:56,066 Martina is doing a PhD 36 01:00:56,066 --> 01:00:57,666 in Rome at the Sapienza 37 01:00:57,666 --> 01:00:59,033 and LUISS University in 38 01:00:59,033 --> 01:00:59,766 cyber security. 39 01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:01,366 She told me that she has 40 01:01:01,366 --> 01:01:03,599 20 cats. Yes, 20 cats. 41 01:01:04,033 --> 01:01:04,699 I don't know if that's 42 01:01:04,699 --> 01:01:05,533 one of the reasons she 43 01:01:05,533 --> 01:01:06,333 wanted to talk about 44 01:01:06,333 --> 01:01:06,933 kindness today, 45 01:01:07,199 --> 01:01:08,099 but listen to this very 46 01:01:08,099 --> 01:01:08,633 first episode 47 01:01:08,633 --> 01:01:09,833 to find out soon. 48 01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:11,900 How come kindness is 49 01:01:11,900 --> 01:01:12,533 associated? Because it's 50 01:01:12,533 --> 01:01:13,366 true. I mean, also for 51 01:01:13,366 --> 01:01:14,233 me, I have this 52 01:01:14,233 --> 01:01:15,033 association sometimes 53 01:01:15,033 --> 01:01:16,133 that also we have this 54 01:01:16,133 --> 01:01:16,966 in French, we say it's 55 01:01:16,966 --> 01:01:17,833 "Robentreaucon" which 56 01:01:17,833 --> 01:01:19,033 basically means "too 57 01:01:19,033 --> 01:01:20,133 good, too stupid, too 58 01:01:20,133 --> 01:01:20,699 nice, too stupid." 59 01:01:21,233 --> 01:01:23,066 But why is that? I mean, 60 01:01:23,666 --> 01:01:24,433 how come there's such 61 01:01:24,433 --> 01:01:24,900 association? 62 01:01:26,066 --> 01:01:27,033 I think if we are 63 01:01:27,033 --> 01:01:28,866 talking about the field 64 01:01:28,866 --> 01:01:30,033 that we are in, if we 65 01:01:30,033 --> 01:01:30,966 want to get a 66 01:01:30,966 --> 01:01:31,866 bit more specific, 67 01:01:32,533 --> 01:01:33,699 I think when you think 68 01:01:33,699 --> 01:01:34,633 about a famous 69 01:01:34,633 --> 01:01:38,266 professor, I think you 70 01:01:38,266 --> 01:01:39,933 imagine someone that is 71 01:01:39,933 --> 01:01:41,333 very strict in his work, 72 01:01:41,333 --> 01:01:42,333 someone who worked hard 73 01:01:42,333 --> 01:01:43,633 to get where it is and 74 01:01:43,633 --> 01:01:44,633 to do so, he had to make 75 01:01:44,633 --> 01:01:45,133 sacrifices, 76 01:01:45,633 --> 01:01:46,366 and often these 77 01:01:46,366 --> 01:01:48,099 sacrifices are assumed 78 01:01:48,099 --> 01:01:49,566 to be connected with. 79 01:01:50,633 --> 01:01:52,633 Try to be stronger than 80 01:01:52,633 --> 01:01:53,466 the events that you have 81 01:01:53,466 --> 01:01:54,266 to face in your life. 82 01:01:54,466 --> 01:01:55,233 So for instance, being a 83 01:01:55,233 --> 01:01:56,233 professor we know is 84 01:01:56,233 --> 01:01:57,233 super hard because once 85 01:01:57,233 --> 01:01:58,033 you do the PhD, 86 01:01:58,033 --> 01:01:58,800 you have to publish a 87 01:01:58,800 --> 01:01:59,433 lot. If you don't 88 01:01:59,433 --> 01:02:00,699 publish, you don't get 89 01:02:00,699 --> 01:02:02,266 recognition and then you 90 01:02:02,266 --> 01:02:03,333 cannot even access the 91 01:02:03,333 --> 01:02:04,566 the resources to be a 92 01:02:04,566 --> 01:02:06,199 professor. And so we 93 01:02:06,199 --> 01:02:07,433 think that by being 94 01:02:07,433 --> 01:02:08,966 kind, the chances that 95 01:02:08,966 --> 01:02:09,633 you have to rise 96 01:02:09,866 --> 01:02:11,599 are also lower because 97 01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:12,599 the more challenges you 98 01:02:12,599 --> 01:02:13,766 have to face, the more 99 01:02:13,766 --> 01:02:15,866 strong you have to be. 100 01:02:16,566 --> 01:02:17,599 Basically, you need to 101 01:02:17,599 --> 01:02:18,500 have a... I don't 102 01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:19,300 remember the English 103 01:02:19,300 --> 01:02:20,099 word exactly, but 104 01:02:20,099 --> 01:02:21,099 "taukskin" like "heart". 105 01:02:21,866 --> 01:02:23,599 And maybe that's why you 106 01:02:23,599 --> 01:02:24,266 shouldn't be nice 107 01:02:24,266 --> 01:02:25,500 because nice, maybe at 108 01:02:25,500 --> 01:02:25,866 the end, 109 01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:26,666 would you say that 110 01:02:26,966 --> 01:02:28,099 being nice is associated 111 01:02:28,099 --> 01:02:29,933 with being sensitive and 112 01:02:29,933 --> 01:02:30,666 instead you should be 113 01:02:30,666 --> 01:02:31,866 not sensitive and have a 114 01:02:31,866 --> 01:02:33,433 hard taukskin and just 115 01:02:33,433 --> 01:02:34,733 go your way without... 116 01:02:34,733 --> 01:02:35,166 Yeah, basically 117 01:02:35,166 --> 01:02:36,400 according to this, you 118 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:36,933 should not care 119 01:02:36,966 --> 01:02:38,066 about other people and 120 01:02:38,066 --> 01:02:39,566 you should just go your 121 01:02:39,566 --> 01:02:41,099 way and try to get 122 01:02:41,099 --> 01:02:42,666 there, no 123 01:02:42,666 --> 01:02:43,366 matter the cost. 124 01:02:44,033 --> 01:02:45,333 But I think that if we 125 01:02:45,333 --> 01:02:46,533 are kind, we also have 126 01:02:46,533 --> 01:02:49,133 to think about what 127 01:02:49,133 --> 01:02:49,699 other people 128 01:02:49,699 --> 01:02:50,533 may be facing. 129 01:02:50,533 --> 01:02:51,333 Maybe we don't know what 130 01:02:51,333 --> 01:02:52,033 they are facing because 131 01:02:52,033 --> 01:02:53,300 they don't tell us. So 132 01:02:53,300 --> 01:02:54,199 it's all about empathy. 133 01:02:54,699 --> 01:02:56,366 And I've been told a lot 134 01:02:56,366 --> 01:02:57,433 of times in these two 135 01:02:57,433 --> 01:02:58,900 years as being like a 136 01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:00,533 PhD, but also as a tutor 137 01:03:00,633 --> 01:03:03,266 for courses, that you're 138 01:03:03,266 --> 01:03:04,500 way too kind to do this 139 01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:06,900 job. And at first, it 140 01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:08,866 hurt me a bit because I 141 01:03:08,866 --> 01:03:10,233 started thinking, maybe 142 01:03:10,233 --> 01:03:12,366 I should change, I need 143 01:03:12,366 --> 01:03:15,233 to grow up and start to 144 01:03:15,233 --> 01:03:16,633 be a little less nice to 145 01:03:16,633 --> 01:03:18,566 people. But then I like 146 01:03:18,566 --> 01:03:19,566 asked myself, do I 147 01:03:19,566 --> 01:03:20,633 really want these 148 01:03:20,633 --> 01:03:22,199 changes in me? Do I 149 01:03:22,199 --> 01:03:22,866 really need this 150 01:03:22,866 --> 01:03:23,833 change? Am I the 151 01:03:23,833 --> 01:03:25,266 problem? Or maybe the 152 01:03:25,266 --> 01:03:26,533 problem is that being 153 01:03:26,533 --> 01:03:27,966 nice is associated with 154 01:03:27,966 --> 01:03:28,300 something that 155 01:03:28,333 --> 01:03:29,633 is actually not true. I 156 01:03:29,633 --> 01:03:31,166 personally believe that 157 01:03:31,166 --> 01:03:32,633 I, and I hope that I can 158 01:03:32,633 --> 01:03:34,066 achieve all my 159 01:03:34,633 --> 01:03:36,066 aims in life without 160 01:03:36,066 --> 01:03:37,066 having to discourage 161 01:03:37,066 --> 01:03:38,199 other people, without 162 01:03:38,199 --> 01:03:39,800 having to put other 163 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:40,466 people down 164 01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:41,733 just for the sake of 165 01:03:41,733 --> 01:03:43,633 achieving my aim. That's 166 01:03:43,633 --> 01:03:43,766 very 167 01:03:43,766 --> 01:03:44,833 interesting. So for example, 168 01:03:45,466 --> 01:03:47,666 so we are talking about 169 01:03:47,666 --> 01:03:50,566 academia. I think there 170 01:03:50,566 --> 01:03:50,966 is the same, for 171 01:03:50,966 --> 01:03:51,900 example, in politics, 172 01:03:51,900 --> 01:03:53,099 politicians. It's like 173 01:03:53,099 --> 01:03:54,133 if you want to be on the 174 01:03:54,133 --> 01:03:54,766 top, become the 175 01:03:54,766 --> 01:03:55,633 president, being elected 176 01:03:55,633 --> 01:03:56,033 or something, 177 01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:57,733 you need to be 178 01:03:57,733 --> 01:03:59,566 hard-tasking. I don't 179 01:03:59,566 --> 01:04:00,933 know that expression. So 180 01:04:00,933 --> 01:04:01,633 there is the 181 01:04:01,633 --> 01:04:02,333 same. And I imagine 182 01:04:02,333 --> 01:04:03,099 in many kinds of 183 01:04:03,099 --> 01:04:05,033 careers. And my question 184 01:04:05,033 --> 01:04:06,233 is then, if someone is 185 01:04:06,233 --> 01:04:07,333 ambitious and wants to 186 01:04:07,333 --> 01:04:07,800 have the really 187 01:04:07,833 --> 01:04:10,133 top position, do you 188 01:04:10,133 --> 01:04:11,533 think that at the end, 189 01:04:11,533 --> 01:04:12,699 for that kind of aim, 190 01:04:13,533 --> 01:04:14,099 they should 191 01:04:14,099 --> 01:04:15,633 somehow not always 192 01:04:15,633 --> 01:04:17,366 be so nice? Or do you 193 01:04:17,366 --> 01:04:18,066 think that because you 194 01:04:18,066 --> 01:04:19,266 say, I understand this, 195 01:04:19,266 --> 01:04:19,733 that you hope 196 01:04:19,733 --> 01:04:20,133 you can achieve 197 01:04:20,166 --> 01:04:21,833 all your aims, keeping 198 01:04:21,833 --> 01:04:24,633 your nice qualities. And 199 01:04:24,633 --> 01:04:26,233 I mean, this is because 200 01:04:26,233 --> 01:04:26,533 maybe you 201 01:04:26,533 --> 01:04:27,233 have some kind of 202 01:04:27,333 --> 01:04:29,099 aims that are not the 203 01:04:29,099 --> 01:04:30,533 most ambitious top one 204 01:04:30,533 --> 01:04:31,233 to be, for example, 205 01:04:31,466 --> 01:04:33,033 president of the 206 01:04:33,033 --> 01:04:34,833 country. And do 207 01:04:34,833 --> 01:04:35,566 you think that for a 208 01:04:35,566 --> 01:04:36,466 very ambitious position 209 01:04:36,466 --> 01:04:37,599 like that, actually, 210 01:04:37,966 --> 01:04:38,566 yes, indeed, 211 01:04:38,933 --> 01:04:39,666 at some point, 212 01:04:39,666 --> 01:04:40,333 you shouldn't be nice. 213 01:04:40,666 --> 01:04:41,233 Or do you think that 214 01:04:41,233 --> 01:04:42,566 even to be president of 215 01:04:42,566 --> 01:04:43,133 the country, 216 01:04:43,133 --> 01:04:43,433 we can be... 217 01:04:44,066 --> 01:04:48,166 Imagine if actually a 218 01:04:48,166 --> 01:04:49,166 president of a country 219 01:04:49,166 --> 01:04:51,466 was nice. Yeah, maybe it 220 01:04:51,466 --> 01:04:52,000 could also be 221 01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:53,166 a better model, 222 01:04:53,666 --> 01:04:54,566 I think, as someone that 223 01:04:54,566 --> 01:04:55,566 we can actually relate 224 01:04:55,566 --> 01:04:57,933 to. And yeah, often 225 01:04:57,933 --> 01:04:59,766 ambition is like 226 01:04:59,766 --> 01:05:00,866 associated with 227 01:05:00,866 --> 01:05:02,366 wanting to reach the top 228 01:05:02,366 --> 01:05:03,433 and doing everything 229 01:05:03,433 --> 01:05:04,333 that you can to reach 230 01:05:04,333 --> 01:05:06,500 it. But I think it's 231 01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:06,933 also a matter 232 01:05:06,933 --> 01:05:08,400 on how we see ambition. 233 01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,133 So maybe my ambition is 234 01:05:10,133 --> 01:05:10,300 not to become the president of, I don't know, 235 01:05:10,333 --> 01:05:14,033 something. But even if 236 01:05:14,033 --> 01:05:16,633 my ambition was that, I 237 01:05:16,633 --> 01:05:19,266 would not compromise my 238 01:05:19,266 --> 01:05:21,066 understanding of how a 239 01:05:21,066 --> 01:05:21,733 human being should 240 01:05:21,733 --> 01:05:22,800 behave with other human 241 01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:24,466 beings. Also, I think 242 01:05:24,466 --> 01:05:25,033 that a lot of 243 01:05:25,033 --> 01:05:25,500 politicians, 244 01:05:25,766 --> 01:05:26,766 unfortunately, nowadays 245 01:05:26,766 --> 01:05:27,566 that want to reach the 246 01:05:27,566 --> 01:05:30,533 top, tend to be like 247 01:05:30,533 --> 01:05:32,566 obnoxious and super 248 01:05:32,566 --> 01:05:33,466 excessive in 249 01:05:33,466 --> 01:05:34,466 their behaviors, also to 250 01:05:34,466 --> 01:05:36,633 attract maybe more 251 01:05:36,633 --> 01:05:38,633 extremist views. And sometimes they say, 252 01:05:38,866 --> 01:05:41,833 super crazy stuff just 253 01:05:41,833 --> 01:05:43,266 to get attention. But 254 01:05:43,266 --> 01:05:44,500 then I think we don't 255 01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:46,066 really know in the end, 256 01:05:46,333 --> 01:05:47,366 even if they reach their 257 01:05:47,366 --> 01:05:48,466 ambitions, we don't know 258 01:05:48,466 --> 01:05:50,533 how really do they feel. 259 01:05:50,533 --> 01:05:51,033 Maybe they 260 01:05:51,033 --> 01:05:52,466 appear as happy 261 01:05:52,466 --> 01:05:53,400 to have reached their 262 01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:54,333 ambitions, but in the 263 01:05:54,333 --> 01:05:55,233 end, they feel shitty 264 01:05:55,233 --> 01:05:55,833 because they 265 01:05:55,833 --> 01:05:56,666 know that they are 266 01:05:56,666 --> 01:05:58,366 not being nice. Yeah, 267 01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:00,733 for sure. I mean, acting 268 01:06:00,733 --> 01:06:01,733 like this, I don't think 269 01:06:01,733 --> 01:06:03,333 it promotes like a good 270 01:06:03,333 --> 01:06:04,233 atmosphere, let's say. 271 01:06:04,233 --> 01:06:05,666 People just... This 272 01:06:05,666 --> 01:06:06,633 creates more violence, 273 01:06:06,633 --> 01:06:07,199 let's say, in a 274 01:06:07,199 --> 01:06:08,133 way. And it also 275 01:06:08,733 --> 01:06:10,233 normalizes this 276 01:06:10,233 --> 01:06:12,433 behavior. Yeah. So I 277 01:06:12,433 --> 01:06:14,333 have an idea about that. 278 01:06:14,333 --> 01:06:15,333 Actually, I'm thinking 279 01:06:15,333 --> 01:06:16,133 of something 280 01:06:16,233 --> 01:06:17,833 related before having 281 01:06:17,833 --> 01:06:19,233 this conversation that 282 01:06:19,233 --> 01:06:20,966 maybe in society, 283 01:06:22,066 --> 01:06:22,500 because I would like to 284 01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:22,933 know where does 285 01:06:22,933 --> 01:06:23,766 it come from, that some 286 01:06:23,766 --> 01:06:24,699 people are nice, some 287 01:06:24,699 --> 01:06:25,566 people are not nice. 288 01:06:26,333 --> 01:06:27,533 Because with 289 01:06:27,533 --> 01:06:28,000 this idea that 290 01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:29,699 I had is that some part 291 01:06:29,699 --> 01:06:30,500 of the population, 292 01:06:30,500 --> 01:06:31,133 basically, we have 293 01:06:31,133 --> 01:06:32,300 certain personality, 294 01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:32,933 characteristics, 295 01:06:33,933 --> 01:06:36,466 whatever. And we tend to 296 01:06:36,466 --> 01:06:37,666 care less about others, 297 01:06:37,933 --> 01:06:39,733 to be more resilient and 298 01:06:39,733 --> 01:06:41,233 more into leadership 299 01:06:41,233 --> 01:06:42,466 power, etc. and less 300 01:06:42,466 --> 01:06:44,066 about empathy, nice 301 01:06:44,066 --> 01:06:45,833 kindness. And some 302 01:06:45,833 --> 01:06:46,533 people on the opposite, 303 01:06:46,866 --> 01:06:47,733 they are more into 304 01:06:47,733 --> 01:06:49,666 kindness. And I was 305 01:06:49,666 --> 01:06:50,666 wondering about that. Do 306 01:06:50,666 --> 01:06:52,866 you think that there is 307 01:06:52,866 --> 01:06:54,133 some... Where 308 01:06:54,133 --> 01:06:54,533 does it come 309 01:06:54,533 --> 01:06:55,233 from that some people 310 01:06:55,233 --> 01:06:56,366 are nicer than others? 311 01:06:57,066 --> 01:06:57,633 Is it something 312 01:06:57,633 --> 01:06:59,066 artificial or 313 01:06:59,066 --> 01:07:01,733 natural? I think that 314 01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:03,733 obviously, the first 315 01:07:03,733 --> 01:07:04,766 moments when we 316 01:07:04,766 --> 01:07:06,366 understand what is nice 317 01:07:06,366 --> 01:07:07,533 means is maybe 318 01:07:07,533 --> 01:07:08,966 when we are small, 319 01:07:08,966 --> 01:07:10,199 when we are small 320 01:07:10,199 --> 01:07:12,033 children. Yeah. We 321 01:07:12,033 --> 01:07:14,733 relate to other people 322 01:07:14,733 --> 01:07:15,233 that are like 323 01:07:15,233 --> 01:07:16,266 us. And we start to 324 01:07:16,266 --> 01:07:16,933 realize that some 325 01:07:16,933 --> 01:07:17,866 people, even if they are 326 01:07:17,866 --> 01:07:19,066 small human beings, they 327 01:07:19,066 --> 01:07:20,833 are not nice. Like I 328 01:07:20,833 --> 01:07:21,166 don't think 329 01:07:21,166 --> 01:07:22,500 that being nice is 330 01:07:22,500 --> 01:07:23,199 something that we are 331 01:07:23,199 --> 01:07:24,666 born with. It's also a 332 01:07:24,666 --> 01:07:25,500 matter of our 333 01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:26,800 personal character, 334 01:07:26,866 --> 01:07:28,133 but it's also a matter 335 01:07:28,133 --> 01:07:29,866 of education. I think I 336 01:07:29,866 --> 01:07:31,733 was very lucky with my 337 01:07:31,733 --> 01:07:32,366 family because 338 01:07:32,366 --> 01:07:33,333 they tried... 339 01:07:34,233 --> 01:07:35,833 Like they are people 340 01:07:35,833 --> 01:07:38,199 that aimed to have an 341 01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:39,533 happy life, just a 342 01:07:39,533 --> 01:07:40,933 normal happy life with a 343 01:07:40,933 --> 01:07:41,733 good family, 344 01:07:42,766 --> 01:07:43,966 like simple life, not 345 01:07:43,966 --> 01:07:45,333 extra ambitious life. 346 01:07:45,533 --> 01:07:46,833 And when growing up, 347 01:07:46,833 --> 01:07:47,666 they taught me 348 01:07:47,666 --> 01:07:49,033 this, that to be 349 01:07:49,033 --> 01:07:50,333 happy doesn't mean that 350 01:07:50,333 --> 01:07:51,599 you have to reach the 351 01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:53,166 top. Maybe you reach the 352 01:07:53,166 --> 01:07:54,300 middle of the stair, 353 01:07:54,566 --> 01:07:55,666 but if you reach that 354 01:07:55,666 --> 01:07:57,699 middle and you still are 355 01:07:57,699 --> 01:07:59,066 true to yourself, then 356 01:07:59,066 --> 01:08:01,000 it is a happy life. And 357 01:08:01,033 --> 01:08:02,733 when I grew up and I 358 01:08:02,733 --> 01:08:03,733 started relating to 359 01:08:03,733 --> 01:08:04,933 people of my age, also 360 01:08:04,933 --> 01:08:06,500 in my teenage years, I 361 01:08:06,500 --> 01:08:07,433 sometimes had 362 01:08:07,433 --> 01:08:08,500 difficulties to relate 363 01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:09,666 to them, to a lot of 364 01:08:09,666 --> 01:08:12,400 stuff. Like also with 365 01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:13,433 girls, I had 366 01:08:13,433 --> 01:08:14,066 maybe a bit of 367 01:08:14,066 --> 01:08:15,133 difficulties to relating 368 01:08:15,133 --> 01:08:16,666 to what they were doing 369 01:08:16,666 --> 01:08:17,766 in their teenage years. 370 01:08:18,066 --> 01:08:18,933 And I always tried to be 371 01:08:18,966 --> 01:08:20,333 nice to them and none of 372 01:08:20,333 --> 01:08:22,433 them was nice to me. And 373 01:08:22,433 --> 01:08:24,133 then in that moment, 374 01:08:25,566 --> 01:08:27,333 maybe I 375 01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:28,033 thought to myself 376 01:08:28,033 --> 01:08:29,166 that I was wrong, maybe 377 01:08:29,166 --> 01:08:30,166 I should be like them, I 378 01:08:30,166 --> 01:08:30,933 should be a little less 379 01:08:30,933 --> 01:08:31,633 nice and 380 01:08:31,633 --> 01:08:32,533 just behave like 381 01:08:32,533 --> 01:08:33,533 them. A bit more bitchy. 382 01:08:33,533 --> 01:08:34,433 A bit more bitchy, yes, 383 01:08:34,433 --> 01:08:35,266 because it was easier. 384 01:08:35,633 --> 01:08:36,033 Because if I 385 01:08:36,033 --> 01:08:36,633 was like that, 386 01:08:36,633 --> 01:08:37,533 then I could relate more 387 01:08:37,533 --> 01:08:38,533 to them, I could do the 388 01:08:38,533 --> 01:08:39,333 stuff that they... And 389 01:08:39,333 --> 01:08:39,833 this created 390 01:08:39,833 --> 01:08:41,000 a lot of hurt 391 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:42,133 within me because I was 392 01:08:42,133 --> 01:08:43,033 just a teenager, an 393 01:08:43,033 --> 01:08:43,866 insecure teenager, so I 394 01:08:43,866 --> 01:08:44,933 didn't know how I had to 395 01:08:44,966 --> 01:08:46,666 behave in society. But 396 01:08:46,666 --> 01:08:47,766 then I also was lucky 397 01:08:47,766 --> 01:08:49,633 enough to find friends 398 01:08:49,633 --> 01:08:50,833 that were 399 01:08:50,833 --> 01:08:52,133 like me. So maybe 400 01:08:52,133 --> 01:08:53,533 we were the underdogs, 401 01:08:53,733 --> 01:08:54,566 you know, we were not 402 01:08:54,566 --> 01:08:55,866 like the others, but we 403 01:08:55,866 --> 01:08:56,433 were nice to 404 01:08:56,433 --> 01:08:56,966 each other and 405 01:08:56,966 --> 01:09:00,133 that was it. But I don't 406 01:09:00,133 --> 01:09:01,066 think that you are born 407 01:09:01,066 --> 01:09:03,333 nice or not nice, it 408 01:09:03,333 --> 01:09:03,833 also depends 409 01:09:03,833 --> 01:09:04,466 on the context 410 01:09:04,466 --> 01:09:06,066 where you grow up. So 411 01:09:06,066 --> 01:09:08,833 you say it also depends. 412 01:09:09,033 --> 01:09:10,066 So just to clarify, do 413 01:09:10,066 --> 01:09:11,899 you think there is a bit 414 01:09:12,033 --> 01:09:13,266 a part of being born 415 01:09:13,266 --> 01:09:14,433 like this or not? And 416 01:09:14,433 --> 01:09:15,666 then education makes the 417 01:09:15,666 --> 01:09:16,133 most of it? 418 01:09:16,433 --> 01:09:17,366 Or do you think 419 01:09:17,366 --> 01:09:18,066 that there is only 420 01:09:18,066 --> 01:09:19,366 education and not at all 421 01:09:19,366 --> 01:09:21,600 the role of genetics? 422 01:09:22,066 --> 01:09:22,600 No, I think 423 01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,233 the most part is 424 01:09:24,233 --> 01:09:25,899 education and relations 425 01:09:25,899 --> 01:09:26,966 to your... Not 426 01:09:26,966 --> 01:09:27,766 necessarily to your 427 01:09:27,766 --> 01:09:28,533 family because then you 428 01:09:28,533 --> 01:09:29,266 detach from it, 429 01:09:29,266 --> 01:09:30,366 but the relations with 430 01:09:30,366 --> 01:09:32,066 your group of pairs, for 431 01:09:32,066 --> 01:09:33,733 people of your age. But 432 01:09:33,733 --> 01:09:34,899 then, yeah, maybe there 433 01:09:34,899 --> 01:09:35,800 are some people that are 434 01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,133 most likely to be nice 435 01:09:38,133 --> 01:09:39,166 when they are born and 436 01:09:39,166 --> 01:09:39,533 some people 437 01:09:39,533 --> 01:09:39,966 that are not. 438 01:09:40,500 --> 01:09:42,166 But yeah, definitely I 439 01:09:42,166 --> 01:09:44,500 think the most comes 440 01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:46,166 from society. Yeah. And 441 01:09:46,166 --> 01:09:46,600 so why do you 442 01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:47,266 think it would be 443 01:09:47,433 --> 01:09:49,166 important to bring more 444 01:09:49,166 --> 01:09:50,199 kindness in the 445 01:09:50,199 --> 01:09:51,833 workplace, in academia 446 01:09:51,833 --> 01:09:52,766 or in politics or 447 01:09:52,766 --> 01:09:53,866 whatever work? 448 01:09:54,199 --> 01:09:55,366 Well, if we think about 449 01:09:55,366 --> 01:09:57,133 academia, we all know 450 01:09:57,133 --> 01:09:58,266 that is a bit of a toxic 451 01:09:58,266 --> 01:09:58,866 environment. 452 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:00,633 Like we are very happy 453 01:10:00,633 --> 01:10:02,333 to do this career. I 454 01:10:02,333 --> 01:10:03,666 mean, it's the best 455 01:10:03,666 --> 01:10:04,533 because we love doing 456 01:10:04,533 --> 01:10:05,033 research and 457 01:10:05,066 --> 01:10:06,033 we can do it in this 458 01:10:06,033 --> 01:10:06,866 environment. But at the 459 01:10:06,866 --> 01:10:09,566 same time, we have a lot 460 01:10:09,566 --> 01:10:10,666 of pressure on ourselves 461 01:10:11,133 --> 01:10:13,666 to perform, to be great 462 01:10:13,666 --> 01:10:15,066 in what we do, even if 463 01:10:15,066 --> 01:10:16,166 it's our first 464 01:10:16,166 --> 01:10:16,833 experience in 465 01:10:16,833 --> 01:10:17,533 doing it, because we 466 01:10:17,533 --> 01:10:18,533 are just learning how to 467 01:10:18,533 --> 01:10:22,033 do research. And if we 468 01:10:22,033 --> 01:10:23,366 are hopefully going to 469 01:10:23,366 --> 01:10:23,600 become 470 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:24,766 professors, I think 471 01:10:24,766 --> 01:10:26,666 a professor should teach 472 01:10:26,666 --> 01:10:27,800 his students something. 473 01:10:28,266 --> 01:10:29,866 And this might be every 474 01:10:29,866 --> 01:10:30,766 discipline on the world, 475 01:10:31,666 --> 01:10:32,666 politics, international 476 01:10:32,666 --> 01:10:33,766 relations, political 477 01:10:33,766 --> 01:10:34,633 philosophy, what you 478 01:10:34,633 --> 01:10:35,866 want. But in the end, 479 01:10:36,466 --> 01:10:37,166 even if you are talking 480 01:10:37,166 --> 01:10:37,899 to students, you are 481 01:10:37,899 --> 01:10:39,633 also talking with people 482 01:10:39,633 --> 01:10:40,966 that may be 483 01:10:40,966 --> 01:10:43,166 facing issues in 484 01:10:43,166 --> 01:10:44,766 their life. So when I 485 01:10:44,766 --> 01:10:45,866 think of myself as a 486 01:10:45,866 --> 01:10:47,566 professor in the future, 487 01:10:47,899 --> 01:10:50,100 I hope that I can be 488 01:10:50,233 --> 01:10:51,166 a person that my 489 01:10:51,166 --> 01:10:52,466 students can rely on, 490 01:10:52,466 --> 01:10:53,833 not just for just doing 491 01:10:53,833 --> 01:10:54,533 a lecture and going 492 01:10:54,533 --> 01:10:55,233 home. And that's 493 01:10:55,300 --> 01:10:57,433 it. So I think kindness 494 01:10:57,433 --> 01:10:58,466 in academia is important 495 01:10:58,466 --> 01:11:00,233 for this to educate also 496 01:11:00,233 --> 01:11:02,166 our students, that it's 497 01:11:02,166 --> 01:11:03,433 possible to reach that 498 01:11:03,433 --> 01:11:05,833 level of ambition and 499 01:11:05,833 --> 01:11:06,500 become a professor, 500 01:11:06,500 --> 01:11:07,333 which is a high 501 01:11:07,333 --> 01:11:08,066 achievement in your 502 01:11:08,066 --> 01:11:09,466 career, but also doing 503 01:11:09,466 --> 01:11:10,466 it without compromising 504 01:11:10,466 --> 01:11:11,899 your values as a person. 505 01:11:12,233 --> 01:11:12,933 So it's not true that 506 01:11:12,933 --> 01:11:14,366 every professor is not 507 01:11:14,366 --> 01:11:15,500 replying to you or that 508 01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:16,733 is maybe angry all the 509 01:11:16,733 --> 01:11:17,466 time or is 510 01:11:17,466 --> 01:11:18,466 not available. 511 01:11:18,766 --> 01:11:19,733 Maybe there are also, 512 01:11:20,033 --> 01:11:20,800 unfortunately, there are 513 01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,133 also people that are 514 01:11:22,133 --> 01:11:23,033 like this. So 515 01:11:23,033 --> 01:11:23,566 the reason it's 516 01:11:23,633 --> 01:11:25,000 true that you can do it. 517 01:11:25,933 --> 01:11:26,433 And do you think in 518 01:11:26,433 --> 01:11:27,500 other sectors and 519 01:11:27,500 --> 01:11:28,233 academia also 520 01:11:28,233 --> 01:11:28,666 that would be 521 01:11:28,666 --> 01:11:30,033 better to bring? Yeah, 522 01:11:30,033 --> 01:11:30,800 definitely. Because I 523 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:31,866 know, because 524 01:11:31,866 --> 01:11:32,966 cybersecurity is a field 525 01:11:32,966 --> 01:11:34,266 that also covers 526 01:11:34,466 --> 01:11:36,766 the corporate sector. I 527 01:11:36,766 --> 01:11:37,800 know a lot of young 528 01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:39,533 professionals that do 529 01:11:39,533 --> 01:11:39,766 corporate 530 01:11:39,766 --> 01:11:41,166 jobs. And every 531 01:11:41,166 --> 01:11:43,000 time they tell me that 532 01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,166 everyone is so angry all 533 01:11:46,166 --> 01:11:49,166 the time and rude. Maybe 534 01:11:49,166 --> 01:11:49,800 you do a job 535 01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:50,266 for the first 536 01:11:50,333 --> 01:11:51,466 time and they don't tell 537 01:11:51,466 --> 01:11:52,533 you, look, this job, 538 01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:54,300 it's nice because but it 539 01:11:54,300 --> 01:11:54,666 has some 540 01:11:54,666 --> 01:11:55,399 problems and you 541 01:11:55,399 --> 01:11:56,266 should fix this. You can 542 01:11:56,266 --> 01:11:57,500 improve this. You can 543 01:11:57,500 --> 01:11:58,766 change this. They just 544 01:11:58,766 --> 01:11:59,766 destroy what 545 01:11:59,766 --> 01:12:00,233 you're doing. 546 01:12:00,566 --> 01:12:01,766 And I ask myself, is 547 01:12:01,766 --> 01:12:03,233 this really helpful in 548 01:12:03,233 --> 01:12:04,666 making the job better or 549 01:12:04,666 --> 01:12:05,500 does it create 550 01:12:05,500 --> 01:12:07,166 anxiety, stress, 551 01:12:07,466 --> 01:12:09,133 and also like you are 552 01:12:09,133 --> 01:12:10,133 not liking the job that 553 01:12:10,133 --> 01:12:10,833 you do because you know 554 01:12:10,833 --> 01:12:11,533 that you are going to be 555 01:12:11,533 --> 01:12:12,633 offended by someone that 556 01:12:12,633 --> 01:12:13,566 is on the top position. 557 01:12:14,066 --> 01:12:15,366 So I don't think it's 558 01:12:15,366 --> 01:12:15,966 productive in 559 01:12:15,966 --> 01:12:16,633 terms of work. 560 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,366 Also, think of, I don't 561 01:12:19,366 --> 01:12:20,333 know, everyone I think 562 01:12:20,333 --> 01:12:21,966 in our experience had at 563 01:12:21,966 --> 01:12:22,833 one point of their life 564 01:12:22,833 --> 01:12:25,833 a professor that was not 565 01:12:25,833 --> 01:12:28,266 so nice. No, it happened 566 01:12:28,266 --> 01:12:30,566 to me during my bachelor 567 01:12:30,566 --> 01:12:32,366 back in Florence. I was 568 01:12:32,366 --> 01:12:33,899 doing my first exam in 569 01:12:33,899 --> 01:12:34,966 political science, which 570 01:12:34,966 --> 01:12:36,233 is now a topic that I 571 01:12:36,233 --> 01:12:37,166 love. And I 572 01:12:37,166 --> 01:12:37,733 was doing this 573 01:12:37,733 --> 01:12:38,800 exam with this professor 574 01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:40,466 who is a very renowned 575 01:12:40,466 --> 01:12:42,899 professor. And obviously 576 01:12:42,899 --> 01:12:43,566 I was super nervous 577 01:12:43,666 --> 01:12:44,733 because it was my first 578 01:12:44,733 --> 01:12:46,433 oral exam at university. 579 01:12:47,233 --> 01:12:48,433 And I remember he asked 580 01:12:48,433 --> 01:12:49,333 me something about 581 01:12:49,833 --> 01:12:51,000 elections in Italy, how 582 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,699 the system works. And I 583 01:12:53,699 --> 01:12:55,466 panicked because I 584 01:12:55,466 --> 01:12:56,366 remember I could not 585 01:12:56,733 --> 01:12:57,566 understand this 586 01:12:57,566 --> 01:12:58,566 proportional system of 587 01:12:58,566 --> 01:12:59,800 elections in Italy. And 588 01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:01,266 he told me, you 589 01:13:01,266 --> 01:13:01,933 should go back to 590 01:13:01,933 --> 01:13:02,966 elementary school. And 591 01:13:02,966 --> 01:13:04,133 it is clear that your 592 01:13:04,133 --> 01:13:06,199 parents are like stupid 593 01:13:06,199 --> 01:13:07,566 people. Oh gosh, that's 594 01:13:07,566 --> 01:13:08,433 terrible. It's terrible. 595 01:13:09,233 --> 01:13:10,266 And I remember I went 596 01:13:10,266 --> 01:13:10,966 home and I started 597 01:13:10,966 --> 01:13:11,699 crying and I 598 01:13:11,699 --> 01:13:12,366 wanted to give 599 01:13:12,433 --> 01:13:13,533 up university because 600 01:13:13,533 --> 01:13:14,933 it's not like, how is 601 01:13:14,933 --> 01:13:16,133 this encouraging me to 602 01:13:16,133 --> 01:13:16,666 study better 603 01:13:16,666 --> 01:13:17,366 for that topic? 604 01:13:18,266 --> 01:13:19,266 And you have to realize 605 01:13:19,266 --> 01:13:21,500 that this is a 65 old 606 01:13:21,500 --> 01:13:23,100 man telling this to a 607 01:13:23,100 --> 01:13:24,466 20, no 19 608 01:13:24,466 --> 01:13:26,066 years young woman 609 01:13:26,166 --> 01:13:27,466 who is just trying to 610 01:13:27,466 --> 01:13:28,066 understand what she 611 01:13:28,066 --> 01:13:28,733 wants to do with her 612 01:13:28,733 --> 01:13:29,466 life. And now I 613 01:13:29,466 --> 01:13:30,533 am a PhD student. 614 01:13:30,533 --> 01:13:32,066 So I think that I have 615 01:13:32,066 --> 01:13:34,366 reached the confidence 616 01:13:34,366 --> 01:13:35,600 to understand that I can 617 01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:36,133 do research. 618 01:13:36,566 --> 01:13:37,033 But back in the 619 01:13:37,066 --> 01:13:40,966 day, I was like, why can 620 01:13:40,966 --> 01:13:42,466 this professor not be 621 01:13:42,466 --> 01:13:43,766 nice to me? Even if I am 622 01:13:43,766 --> 01:13:45,433 not doing the job and 623 01:13:45,433 --> 01:13:46,433 I was not good in that 624 01:13:46,433 --> 01:13:47,533 oral exam, it's clear 625 01:13:47,533 --> 01:13:48,566 because I was too 626 01:13:48,566 --> 01:13:49,333 insecure. But 627 01:13:49,333 --> 01:13:50,166 at the same time, 628 01:13:51,033 --> 01:13:52,366 why? What's the point of 629 01:13:52,366 --> 01:13:53,766 saying to someone, 630 01:13:53,766 --> 01:13:54,833 breaking them like this? 631 01:13:55,300 --> 01:13:56,300 Like it's not even 632 01:13:56,300 --> 01:13:57,000 going to help. It's not 633 01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:58,366 even going to encourage 634 01:13:58,366 --> 01:13:59,366 you to study more or 635 01:13:59,366 --> 01:14:00,033 something at the 636 01:14:00,033 --> 01:14:00,566 total opposite. 637 01:14:01,866 --> 01:14:02,866 And so for example, 638 01:14:02,866 --> 01:14:03,699 taking that example, 639 01:14:04,766 --> 01:14:05,466 let's try to put 640 01:14:05,466 --> 01:14:06,166 ourselves in 641 01:14:06,166 --> 01:14:06,766 their shoes because if 642 01:14:06,833 --> 01:14:07,766 they behave like this, 643 01:14:08,133 --> 01:14:09,433 there must be some kind 644 01:14:09,433 --> 01:14:11,033 of reason. Like why 645 01:14:11,033 --> 01:14:12,433 would someone say that? 646 01:14:13,733 --> 01:14:14,433 I don't know. I think 647 01:14:14,433 --> 01:14:15,866 you have to think about 648 01:14:15,866 --> 01:14:19,066 his 65. Obviously, when 649 01:14:19,066 --> 01:14:19,766 he started 650 01:14:19,766 --> 01:14:21,466 his PhD or his 651 01:14:21,466 --> 01:14:23,533 academic career, things 652 01:14:23,533 --> 01:14:25,033 were different. Maybe he 653 01:14:25,033 --> 01:14:26,033 was taught by his 654 01:14:26,033 --> 01:14:27,133 superior that 655 01:14:27,133 --> 01:14:28,566 he had to be, 656 01:14:29,033 --> 01:14:30,233 you know, strong and 657 01:14:30,233 --> 01:14:31,533 everything to reach that 658 01:14:31,533 --> 01:14:33,366 level. And once you 659 01:14:33,366 --> 01:14:34,033 reach that level, 660 01:14:34,100 --> 01:14:35,199 you achieved your 661 01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:36,366 ambition and you feel 662 01:14:36,366 --> 01:14:37,899 like you can have the 663 01:14:37,899 --> 01:14:39,466 power to behave like 664 01:14:39,466 --> 01:14:40,166 this to young 665 01:14:40,166 --> 01:14:41,666 students. So maybe it's 666 01:14:41,666 --> 01:14:42,666 a matter of also of 667 01:14:42,666 --> 01:14:44,066 power dynamics and the 668 01:14:44,066 --> 01:14:45,033 way they are perceived 669 01:14:45,033 --> 01:14:46,066 in society, 670 01:14:46,066 --> 01:14:47,133 especially by elderly 671 01:14:47,133 --> 01:14:48,333 men, I think in Italy 672 01:14:48,333 --> 01:14:50,933 also. So I mean, I'm 673 01:14:50,933 --> 01:14:51,766 connecting the dots. 674 01:14:51,766 --> 01:14:51,966 You've told 675 01:14:51,966 --> 01:14:53,066 me many things. And at 676 01:14:53,066 --> 01:14:53,866 the end, what I think 677 01:14:53,866 --> 01:14:56,066 that I see is that you 678 01:14:56,066 --> 01:14:57,199 said people, 679 01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:58,566 okay, they can be 680 01:14:58,866 --> 01:14:59,933 nicer or less, of 681 01:14:59,933 --> 01:15:01,333 course, by maybe a bit a 682 01:15:01,333 --> 01:15:01,933 part of genics or 683 01:15:01,933 --> 01:15:02,533 whatever, but 684 01:15:02,533 --> 01:15:03,300 mostly by education. 685 01:15:03,866 --> 01:15:05,566 And then we're talking 686 01:15:05,566 --> 01:15:06,666 about in this example, 687 01:15:07,100 --> 01:15:08,066 someone who also learned 688 01:15:08,066 --> 01:15:09,166 by the example of 689 01:15:09,266 --> 01:15:10,233 previous people who told 690 01:15:10,233 --> 01:15:12,199 them how to do. So it 691 01:15:12,199 --> 01:15:13,066 seems that there it's 692 01:15:13,066 --> 01:15:14,500 always something that we 693 01:15:14,566 --> 01:15:16,166 learn from experience in 694 01:15:16,166 --> 01:15:17,666 our education. So young 695 01:15:17,666 --> 01:15:20,033 also in society because 696 01:15:20,033 --> 01:15:21,066 we see how things work. 697 01:15:21,066 --> 01:15:21,699 And we are told that 698 01:15:21,699 --> 01:15:22,633 this is how things 699 01:15:22,633 --> 01:15:24,266 should work, etc. So we 700 01:15:24,266 --> 01:15:25,100 reproduce what 701 01:15:25,100 --> 01:15:25,666 we see around 702 01:15:25,666 --> 01:15:28,133 this basically. Yeah. So 703 01:15:28,133 --> 01:15:30,899 because this podcast is 704 01:15:30,899 --> 01:15:33,933 entitled One Change in 705 01:15:33,933 --> 01:15:34,766 the World, because 706 01:15:34,766 --> 01:15:35,800 actually it comes from a 707 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:37,133 quote, which is wrongly 708 01:15:37,133 --> 01:15:38,033 attributed to Gandhi, 709 01:15:38,033 --> 01:15:38,966 but it's supposed to be 710 01:15:38,966 --> 01:15:40,100 Gandhi, who was saying 711 01:15:40,100 --> 01:15:41,066 it be the change he 712 01:15:41,066 --> 01:15:41,666 wants to see in the 713 01:15:41,666 --> 01:15:42,966 world. So my question 714 01:15:42,966 --> 01:15:44,166 there is, what 715 01:15:44,166 --> 01:15:45,633 would be one solution 716 01:15:45,633 --> 01:15:48,733 for that? I would like 717 01:15:48,733 --> 01:15:49,566 we try to think about 718 01:15:49,566 --> 01:15:50,233 that. And then 719 01:15:50,233 --> 01:15:51,033 how us at the 720 01:15:51,033 --> 01:15:52,766 individual level, we 721 01:15:52,766 --> 01:15:54,233 could actually go toward 722 01:15:54,233 --> 01:15:56,033 that. So if this is 723 01:15:56,033 --> 01:15:56,433 something that 724 01:15:56,433 --> 01:15:56,933 we learn from 725 01:15:56,933 --> 01:15:57,600 experience from what's 726 01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:58,566 around us from society, 727 01:15:58,966 --> 01:16:00,466 it's kind of hard maybe 728 01:16:00,466 --> 01:16:01,199 as an 729 01:16:01,199 --> 01:16:02,466 individual person to do 730 01:16:02,466 --> 01:16:05,133 something. So do you see 731 01:16:05,133 --> 01:16:07,466 any solution for that 732 01:16:07,466 --> 01:16:08,133 kind of problem of 733 01:16:08,133 --> 01:16:08,633 kindness in 734 01:16:08,633 --> 01:16:09,333 general? Well, 735 01:16:09,433 --> 01:16:11,366 I think that first it 736 01:16:11,366 --> 01:16:12,466 has to start with an 737 01:16:12,466 --> 01:16:13,966 individual reflection, 738 01:16:14,466 --> 01:16:17,866 like even no matter the 739 01:16:17,933 --> 01:16:19,333 aim that we have in 740 01:16:19,333 --> 01:16:20,233 life, no matter the 741 01:16:20,233 --> 01:16:21,000 achievements that we 742 01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:22,166 want to arrive to, 743 01:16:22,933 --> 01:16:24,333 we have to reflect on 744 01:16:24,333 --> 01:16:25,733 ourselves. So I think 745 01:16:25,733 --> 01:16:26,866 that for me, the most 746 01:16:26,866 --> 01:16:27,533 important part 747 01:16:27,533 --> 01:16:28,333 is that when I 748 01:16:28,333 --> 01:16:29,333 go to sleep at the end 749 01:16:29,333 --> 01:16:30,233 of the day, I want to 750 01:16:30,233 --> 01:16:31,133 think that I am a good 751 01:16:31,133 --> 01:16:32,333 person. So 752 01:16:32,333 --> 01:16:33,266 even if I am not 753 01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:35,933 doing the most, because 754 01:16:35,933 --> 01:16:37,133 to do that, that I would 755 01:16:37,133 --> 01:16:37,866 have to I don't know, 756 01:16:37,866 --> 01:16:38,333 treat someone 757 01:16:38,333 --> 01:16:39,533 badly or just, 758 01:16:39,533 --> 01:16:41,699 you know, take advantage 759 01:16:41,699 --> 01:16:43,133 of another person, I'm 760 01:16:43,133 --> 01:16:43,966 not going to do that. 761 01:16:43,966 --> 01:16:44,433 Because at 762 01:16:44,433 --> 01:16:44,699 the end of the 763 01:16:44,733 --> 01:16:45,566 day, I want to go to 764 01:16:45,566 --> 01:16:46,833 sleep and think I was a 765 01:16:46,833 --> 01:16:47,933 good person. I was nice, 766 01:16:48,166 --> 01:16:48,633 because then 767 01:16:48,633 --> 01:16:49,233 I cannot live 768 01:16:49,233 --> 01:16:50,366 with myself. And in our 769 01:16:50,366 --> 01:16:51,666 life, we are forced to 770 01:16:51,666 --> 01:16:52,333 live with just one 771 01:16:52,333 --> 01:16:52,866 person, which 772 01:16:52,866 --> 01:16:53,433 is ourselves. 773 01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:55,600 And forever and ever. So 774 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:57,000 I want to be happy with 775 01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:58,033 myself. So at the 776 01:16:58,033 --> 01:16:58,233 individual 777 01:16:58,233 --> 01:16:59,133 level, this is very 778 01:16:59,133 --> 01:17:00,300 important. And how can 779 01:17:00,300 --> 01:17:02,166 we do it? Think about in 780 01:17:02,166 --> 01:17:03,133 our field, we are young 781 01:17:03,133 --> 01:17:04,500 scholars, we are going, 782 01:17:04,933 --> 01:17:05,533 we are given the 783 01:17:05,533 --> 01:17:06,300 opportunity also to 784 01:17:06,300 --> 01:17:06,966 relate to young 785 01:17:06,966 --> 01:17:08,533 students. It's always 786 01:17:08,533 --> 01:17:09,366 important to remember 787 01:17:09,433 --> 01:17:11,333 that unfortunately, we 788 01:17:11,333 --> 01:17:12,433 have always to have a 789 01:17:12,433 --> 01:17:13,666 level of detachment from 790 01:17:13,666 --> 01:17:15,899 people. So yeah, just 791 01:17:15,899 --> 01:17:16,866 one minute, I'm gonna 792 01:17:16,866 --> 01:17:18,933 first. So it's the first 793 01:17:18,933 --> 01:17:19,766 time I'm recording. So 794 01:17:19,766 --> 01:17:20,466 of course, there was a 795 01:17:20,466 --> 01:17:21,866 technical problem. And 796 01:17:21,866 --> 01:17:22,966 we like storage, but now 797 01:17:22,966 --> 01:17:25,266 we're back. So we were 798 01:17:25,266 --> 01:17:27,266 talking about maybe some 799 01:17:27,266 --> 01:17:28,800 solutions at the level 800 01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:29,533 of society at the 801 01:17:29,533 --> 01:17:30,566 individual level. Yeah. 802 01:17:30,866 --> 01:17:32,866 So please. So yeah, I 803 01:17:32,866 --> 01:17:33,366 thought that 804 01:17:33,633 --> 01:17:34,966 first we have to reflect 805 01:17:34,966 --> 01:17:36,899 on ourselves. So at the 806 01:17:36,899 --> 01:17:38,699 individual levels, in 807 01:17:38,699 --> 01:17:40,333 our field as young, 808 01:17:40,366 --> 01:17:41,800 hopefully academics, I 809 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:43,133 think it's important to 810 01:17:43,133 --> 01:17:44,633 us to show a model of 811 01:17:44,633 --> 01:17:45,166 relating to 812 01:17:45,166 --> 01:17:46,366 students. On the 813 01:17:46,366 --> 01:17:47,933 one hand, still showing 814 01:17:47,933 --> 01:17:48,966 of course, a detachment, 815 01:17:48,966 --> 01:17:50,033 because we are not 816 01:17:50,033 --> 01:17:51,266 friends. But at 817 01:17:51,266 --> 01:17:52,033 the same times, 818 01:17:52,633 --> 01:17:53,733 try to engage, 819 01:17:54,066 --> 01:17:55,566 understand if I don't 820 01:17:55,566 --> 01:17:56,166 know everything is 821 01:17:56,166 --> 01:17:57,566 clear, if we do our job 822 01:17:57,566 --> 01:17:58,633 in a good way, 823 01:17:59,433 --> 01:18:01,133 if we can help them. And 824 01:18:01,133 --> 01:18:03,233 I think people maybe 825 01:18:03,233 --> 01:18:04,366 that are doing this job 826 01:18:04,366 --> 01:18:05,733 could respond to this by 827 01:18:05,733 --> 01:18:06,633 saying, ah, but it's a 828 01:18:06,633 --> 01:18:07,399 lot of work is 829 01:18:07,399 --> 01:18:08,333 overwhelming. There are 830 01:18:08,333 --> 01:18:09,466 like 200 students, we 831 01:18:09,466 --> 01:18:10,266 cannot look after 832 01:18:10,399 --> 01:18:12,166 each one of them. Yes, 833 01:18:12,166 --> 01:18:13,199 but at the same time, 834 01:18:13,566 --> 01:18:15,166 this is our job. So if 835 01:18:15,166 --> 01:18:16,133 our job is being 836 01:18:16,133 --> 01:18:17,199 professors and 837 01:18:17,199 --> 01:18:18,066 researchers as 838 01:18:18,066 --> 01:18:19,566 professors, it's our job 839 01:18:19,566 --> 01:18:20,966 to take into account the 840 01:18:20,966 --> 01:18:21,566 instances of 841 01:18:21,566 --> 01:18:22,166 the students, 842 01:18:22,166 --> 01:18:23,033 it might be difficult, 843 01:18:23,033 --> 01:18:23,666 it might be draining. 844 01:18:24,133 --> 01:18:25,666 But at the same time, if 845 01:18:25,666 --> 01:18:26,933 we achieve the goal, 846 01:18:27,066 --> 01:18:28,133 it doesn't matter that 847 01:18:28,133 --> 01:18:29,333 then we can take 848 01:18:29,333 --> 01:18:30,666 advantage of our power 849 01:18:30,666 --> 01:18:32,233 and just don't give a 850 01:18:32,233 --> 01:18:33,699 damn about what 851 01:18:33,699 --> 01:18:34,399 other students are 852 01:18:34,399 --> 01:18:36,033 doing. So at the 853 01:18:36,033 --> 01:18:36,800 individual level, and 854 01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:37,800 also I think that 855 01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:38,833 behaving like this 856 01:18:38,833 --> 01:18:40,133 as professors, then we 857 01:18:40,133 --> 01:18:41,266 show also a model to the 858 01:18:41,266 --> 01:18:42,433 students, because they 859 01:18:42,433 --> 01:18:43,233 can see that 860 01:18:43,233 --> 01:18:43,866 even if this 861 01:18:43,866 --> 01:18:45,233 person is on top of the 862 01:18:45,233 --> 01:18:46,933 chain of academia, is 863 01:18:46,933 --> 01:18:47,633 still being a nice 864 01:18:47,633 --> 01:18:48,266 person, maybe 865 01:18:48,266 --> 01:18:49,199 they know that 866 01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,266 you are known for being 867 01:18:51,266 --> 01:18:52,133 nice to students. But 868 01:18:52,133 --> 01:18:53,633 nice does not mean weak 869 01:18:53,633 --> 01:18:54,766 and nice does not mean 870 01:18:54,833 --> 01:18:56,366 not strict. I can be a 871 01:18:56,366 --> 01:18:58,199 nice person and tell 872 01:18:58,199 --> 01:18:59,466 you, you are not passing 873 01:18:59,466 --> 01:19:00,666 this exam. I 874 01:19:00,666 --> 01:19:01,166 can be a nice 875 01:19:01,166 --> 01:19:03,199 person and doing an oral 876 01:19:03,199 --> 01:19:04,633 exam and telling you I'm 877 01:19:04,633 --> 01:19:05,266 sorry, you have to do 878 01:19:05,266 --> 01:19:06,933 the exam. But it's not a 879 01:19:06,933 --> 01:19:08,066 matter of weakness or 880 01:19:08,066 --> 01:19:09,266 being, I don't know, 881 01:19:09,833 --> 01:19:12,033 that easy with doing the 882 01:19:12,033 --> 01:19:12,966 maximum grade 883 01:19:12,966 --> 01:19:13,466 to the student 884 01:19:13,466 --> 01:19:14,566 is about how you relate 885 01:19:14,566 --> 01:19:16,366 to them. So we can show 886 01:19:16,366 --> 01:19:17,433 this model. So what 887 01:19:17,433 --> 01:19:17,833 would you say 888 01:19:17,833 --> 01:19:19,266 is the difference 889 01:19:19,366 --> 01:19:21,033 between being kind and 890 01:19:21,033 --> 01:19:21,899 saying you don't pass 891 01:19:21,899 --> 01:19:25,399 and like people thinking 892 01:19:25,399 --> 01:19:25,666 that it's 893 01:19:25,666 --> 01:19:26,333 not kind to say 894 01:19:26,333 --> 01:19:27,600 that, you know. Because 895 01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:31,366 like I can still be 896 01:19:31,366 --> 01:19:32,600 respectful in my job, 897 01:19:32,833 --> 01:19:33,233 like doing 898 01:19:33,233 --> 01:19:34,100 the job properly 899 01:19:34,333 --> 01:19:36,266 and evaluating you in a 900 01:19:36,266 --> 01:19:37,566 way that is impartial. 901 01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,100 So telling this exam is 902 01:19:40,100 --> 01:19:40,766 doing great, 903 01:19:40,766 --> 01:19:41,333 you are getting 904 01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:42,733 the maximum grade. This 905 01:19:42,733 --> 01:19:43,766 exam is not good, you 906 01:19:43,766 --> 01:19:45,133 have to redo the exam. 907 01:19:45,566 --> 01:19:46,166 Being honest 908 01:19:46,166 --> 01:19:47,500 does not mean that 909 01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:48,766 I'm not nice. It just 910 01:19:48,766 --> 01:19:50,366 means that I am honest 911 01:19:50,366 --> 01:19:51,733 in my job, but I'm doing 912 01:19:51,733 --> 01:19:52,533 it in a nice 913 01:19:52,533 --> 01:19:53,533 way. So I'm not 914 01:19:53,533 --> 01:19:54,866 telling you this exam is 915 01:19:54,866 --> 01:19:56,666 shit, you suck. You are 916 01:19:56,666 --> 01:19:57,766 not going to make it, 917 01:19:57,766 --> 01:19:59,233 you are not going to be 918 01:19:59,266 --> 01:20:00,500 like you're stupid. This 919 01:20:00,500 --> 01:20:02,366 is doing the job but not 920 01:20:02,366 --> 01:20:03,966 in a nice way. So it's 921 01:20:03,966 --> 01:20:04,666 different. And this also 922 01:20:04,666 --> 01:20:05,933 helps us to understand 923 01:20:05,933 --> 01:20:06,833 the difference between 924 01:20:06,833 --> 01:20:08,666 being weak and being 925 01:20:08,666 --> 01:20:10,066 nice. And as 926 01:20:10,066 --> 01:20:10,833 I told you at 927 01:20:10,833 --> 01:20:11,466 the start of the 928 01:20:11,466 --> 01:20:12,633 podcast, I think that 929 01:20:12,633 --> 01:20:13,766 these are associated. 930 01:20:14,266 --> 01:20:14,966 But this is also true 931 01:20:14,966 --> 01:20:15,266 for instance, 932 01:20:15,366 --> 01:20:16,433 for being empathic or 933 01:20:16,433 --> 01:20:17,333 for being sensitive. 934 01:20:17,933 --> 01:20:19,066 Unfortunately, it's 935 01:20:19,066 --> 01:20:19,466 often 936 01:20:19,466 --> 01:20:21,333 associated with being 937 01:20:21,333 --> 01:20:22,566 a weak person because a 938 01:20:22,566 --> 01:20:23,666 strong person does not 939 01:20:23,666 --> 01:20:25,033 cry or does not care, 940 01:20:25,399 --> 01:20:26,166 but it's not true. 941 01:20:27,666 --> 01:20:28,466 So at the individual 942 01:20:28,466 --> 01:20:29,633 level, that would be 943 01:20:29,633 --> 01:20:31,666 because indeed we learn 944 01:20:31,666 --> 01:20:32,666 not to be kind 945 01:20:32,666 --> 01:20:34,199 by seeing others 946 01:20:34,199 --> 01:20:35,333 being not kind. But the 947 01:20:35,333 --> 01:20:36,000 individual level, it 948 01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:36,766 would be to show the 949 01:20:36,766 --> 01:20:38,366 example, being 950 01:20:38,366 --> 01:20:39,333 ourselves kind with 951 01:20:39,366 --> 01:20:40,866 others to show basically 952 01:20:40,866 --> 01:20:42,333 that someone can make it 953 01:20:42,333 --> 01:20:44,933 and be a successful 954 01:20:44,933 --> 01:20:46,833 person without being a 955 01:20:46,833 --> 01:20:49,733 terrible person. At the 956 01:20:49,733 --> 01:20:51,166 level of the society, do 957 01:20:51,166 --> 01:20:53,033 you think that there is 958 01:20:53,033 --> 01:20:54,933 one solution or it needs 959 01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:55,633 to start with each 960 01:20:55,633 --> 01:20:56,466 person showing the good 961 01:20:56,466 --> 01:20:57,533 example? Because what 962 01:20:57,533 --> 01:20:58,266 you were also describing 963 01:20:58,266 --> 01:20:58,899 to me is that 964 01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:00,166 most of the people, they 965 01:21:00,166 --> 01:21:04,733 learn it from what they 966 01:21:04,733 --> 01:21:06,466 know, but there is kind 967 01:21:06,466 --> 01:21:06,866 of a cycle, 968 01:21:07,033 --> 01:21:08,333 because people learn it 969 01:21:08,333 --> 01:21:09,466 from before, so there's 970 01:21:09,466 --> 01:21:10,633 a system there. It's 971 01:21:10,633 --> 01:21:11,166 definitely a 972 01:21:11,166 --> 01:21:12,500 chain of people 973 01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:13,800 making up the system. So 974 01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:14,466 the more individuals 975 01:21:14,466 --> 01:21:15,933 make a change by 976 01:21:15,933 --> 01:21:17,933 behaving in a nice way 977 01:21:17,933 --> 01:21:18,466 and treating 978 01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:19,566 people with more 979 01:21:19,566 --> 01:21:21,133 kindness. And the more 980 01:21:21,133 --> 01:21:23,333 they show that this is 981 01:21:23,333 --> 01:21:25,066 not incompatible with 982 01:21:25,066 --> 01:21:25,766 achieving your 983 01:21:25,766 --> 01:21:26,966 goals. And it's not 984 01:21:26,966 --> 01:21:28,533 incompatible also with 985 01:21:28,533 --> 01:21:29,300 being competitive, 986 01:21:29,866 --> 01:21:30,866 because you can be 987 01:21:30,866 --> 01:21:31,833 competitive in a 988 01:21:31,866 --> 01:21:33,666 supportive way and just 989 01:21:33,666 --> 01:21:34,366 be nice to the 990 01:21:34,366 --> 01:21:35,733 adversary. Right. So 991 01:21:35,733 --> 01:21:37,566 that means that to break 992 01:21:37,566 --> 01:21:38,466 this system 993 01:21:38,466 --> 01:21:39,666 that forces the things 994 01:21:39,666 --> 01:21:41,066 and looks to reproduce 995 01:21:41,066 --> 01:21:42,066 itself all the time, 996 01:21:42,466 --> 01:21:42,866 there should 997 01:21:42,866 --> 01:21:43,933 be more people 998 01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:45,866 who identify it as a 999 01:21:45,866 --> 01:21:47,699 systematic problem and 1000 01:21:47,699 --> 01:21:49,166 actually make the switch 1001 01:21:49,166 --> 01:21:52,000 to change 1002 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:53,133 it, to actually 1003 01:21:53,133 --> 01:21:53,966 to create a virtual 1004 01:21:53,966 --> 01:21:54,966 circle at the end, 1005 01:21:54,966 --> 01:21:56,066 because then that would 1006 01:21:56,066 --> 01:21:56,600 hopefully 1007 01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:57,333 create the virtual 1008 01:21:58,066 --> 01:21:59,533 cycle in the positive 1009 01:21:59,533 --> 01:22:01,433 sense. I think the most 1010 01:22:01,433 --> 01:22:02,433 important part in this 1011 01:22:02,433 --> 01:22:03,399 is starting to make 1012 01:22:03,399 --> 01:22:04,300 people understand that 1013 01:22:04,300 --> 01:22:05,600 it's not right to be 1014 01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:06,933 indifferent towards the 1015 01:22:06,933 --> 01:22:08,566 others. I 1016 01:22:08,566 --> 01:22:09,133 think that this 1017 01:22:10,233 --> 01:22:12,066 selfishness of being 1018 01:22:12,066 --> 01:22:13,333 indifferent is seen as 1019 01:22:13,333 --> 01:22:14,466 I'm doing what is best 1020 01:22:14,466 --> 01:22:15,033 for me and 1021 01:22:15,033 --> 01:22:15,500 then what happens 1022 01:22:15,500 --> 01:22:16,466 to the others, I don't 1023 01:22:16,466 --> 01:22:17,766 care. But I think it's 1024 01:22:17,766 --> 01:22:18,766 important to also 1025 01:22:18,766 --> 01:22:19,533 reflect on 1026 01:22:19,533 --> 01:22:20,399 what other people 1027 01:22:20,966 --> 01:22:22,500 may be facing, what 1028 01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:23,633 issues are they facing, 1029 01:22:23,933 --> 01:22:26,100 and just you don't know 1030 01:22:26,100 --> 01:22:27,199 who you have 1031 01:22:27,199 --> 01:22:27,933 in front of you 1032 01:22:28,033 --> 01:22:29,333 until that person opens 1033 01:22:29,333 --> 01:22:31,433 up to you. And it's 1034 01:22:31,433 --> 01:22:32,566 better to be kind to 1035 01:22:32,566 --> 01:22:33,533 that person than 1036 01:22:33,533 --> 01:22:34,600 risking to hurt 1037 01:22:34,733 --> 01:22:36,566 the person. Sure. And 1038 01:22:36,566 --> 01:22:38,699 so, I mean, we're 1039 01:22:38,699 --> 01:22:40,266 getting close to a nice 1040 01:22:40,266 --> 01:22:41,466 solution. I 1041 01:22:41,466 --> 01:22:42,133 want to go even, 1042 01:22:42,133 --> 01:22:43,466 maybe even more into 1043 01:22:43,466 --> 01:22:44,666 practice. Let's say that 1044 01:22:44,666 --> 01:22:46,500 we say that ideally 1045 01:22:46,500 --> 01:22:46,966 there should be 1046 01:22:46,966 --> 01:22:47,566 some people who 1047 01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:49,733 identify that's a 1048 01:22:49,733 --> 01:22:51,966 problem and convert by 1049 01:22:51,966 --> 01:22:52,633 themselves, be the 1050 01:22:52,633 --> 01:22:53,133 change in this 1051 01:22:53,133 --> 01:22:55,066 world. Do you 1052 01:22:55,066 --> 01:22:56,166 think that there is a 1053 01:22:56,166 --> 01:22:58,566 way for having more 1054 01:22:58,566 --> 01:23:00,199 people getting aware of 1055 01:23:00,199 --> 01:23:01,766 that, except 1056 01:23:01,766 --> 01:23:03,000 from our personal 1057 01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:03,733 example, I mean, 1058 01:23:03,733 --> 01:23:05,533 something more bigger. 1059 01:23:05,533 --> 01:23:06,199 Maybe there's no way. 1060 01:23:06,199 --> 01:23:06,833 I'm just asking like 1061 01:23:06,833 --> 01:23:07,766 that. Do you 1062 01:23:07,766 --> 01:23:08,500 think that there's a way 1063 01:23:08,500 --> 01:23:10,366 to make something at 1064 01:23:10,366 --> 01:23:11,366 greater level than just 1065 01:23:11,366 --> 01:23:11,566 one 1066 01:23:11,566 --> 01:23:12,300 individual or to make 1067 01:23:12,333 --> 01:23:15,033 people more aware? This 1068 01:23:15,033 --> 01:23:15,833 is very challenging 1069 01:23:15,833 --> 01:23:17,566 because how can you show 1070 01:23:17,566 --> 01:23:20,166 it? It's not that I can 1071 01:23:20,166 --> 01:23:21,399 create like a movement 1072 01:23:21,399 --> 01:23:23,766 of people being nice. 1073 01:23:23,766 --> 01:23:24,566 Maybe with this podcast. 1074 01:23:25,833 --> 01:23:26,199 Yeah, we can 1075 01:23:26,199 --> 01:23:27,766 reach out to people 1076 01:23:27,766 --> 01:23:29,300 that are facing the same 1077 01:23:29,300 --> 01:23:30,433 struggles, that maybe 1078 01:23:30,433 --> 01:23:31,500 are feeling that they 1079 01:23:31,500 --> 01:23:32,266 have to change their 1080 01:23:32,266 --> 01:23:32,699 personality 1081 01:23:32,866 --> 01:23:33,800 or their behavior in 1082 01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:34,666 order to achieve their 1083 01:23:34,666 --> 01:23:37,233 goals. Maybe I think we 1084 01:23:37,233 --> 01:23:38,633 have to find also 1085 01:23:38,633 --> 01:23:39,333 examples of 1086 01:23:39,366 --> 01:23:40,433 people who have already 1087 01:23:40,433 --> 01:23:41,500 achieved this, so that 1088 01:23:41,500 --> 01:23:42,533 are known for being nice 1089 01:23:42,533 --> 01:23:43,866 people that did that job 1090 01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,266 nicely and did not give 1091 01:23:46,266 --> 01:23:47,533 up on their personal 1092 01:23:47,533 --> 01:23:49,000 kindness. Maybe this 1093 01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:49,266 could be 1094 01:23:49,266 --> 01:23:50,333 great too. Because 1095 01:23:50,333 --> 01:23:51,266 I'm thinking also of one 1096 01:23:51,266 --> 01:23:52,633 thing, which is maybe 1097 01:23:52,633 --> 01:23:54,066 part of the problem that 1098 01:23:54,066 --> 01:23:57,766 when we are not nice, 1099 01:23:58,166 --> 01:23:59,133 we are, we have much 1100 01:23:59,133 --> 01:24:00,533 more mediatic equal, no? 1101 01:24:00,833 --> 01:24:01,600 So, and you mentioned it 1102 01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:03,066 with politicians. If you 1103 01:24:03,433 --> 01:24:04,533 become violent with your 1104 01:24:04,533 --> 01:24:05,399 opponent, political 1105 01:24:05,399 --> 01:24:06,833 opponent, then things go 1106 01:24:06,833 --> 01:24:07,533 viral. Basically, 1107 01:24:07,633 --> 01:24:08,566 if you have a clash, 1108 01:24:09,033 --> 01:24:09,500 that's gonna, you're 1109 01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:10,133 gonna have a buzz, you 1110 01:24:10,133 --> 01:24:11,300 know? Of course. And so, 1111 01:24:11,966 --> 01:24:13,133 maybe that's also, there 1112 01:24:13,133 --> 01:24:14,000 could be one thing, you 1113 01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:15,033 make me think, there 1114 01:24:15,033 --> 01:24:15,333 could be one 1115 01:24:15,333 --> 01:24:15,866 thing where each 1116 01:24:15,866 --> 01:24:17,600 person shows in, by 1117 01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:18,833 their example, but also 1118 01:24:18,833 --> 01:24:20,000 maybe reducing the 1119 01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,733 visibility of people who 1120 01:24:21,733 --> 01:24:22,733 act unkind. 1121 01:24:23,066 --> 01:24:23,766 Because having this 1122 01:24:23,766 --> 01:24:24,933 clash that just go viral 1123 01:24:24,933 --> 01:24:26,433 everywhere, viral, is 1124 01:24:26,433 --> 01:24:26,966 actually doing 1125 01:24:26,966 --> 01:24:27,300 the opposite. 1126 01:24:27,533 --> 01:24:28,199 Now it's bringing more 1127 01:24:28,199 --> 01:24:29,699 visibility, a model of 1128 01:24:29,699 --> 01:24:31,166 being not, and usually, 1129 01:24:31,866 --> 01:24:32,866 though, usually if I 1130 01:24:32,899 --> 01:24:33,766 understand well also, 1131 01:24:34,266 --> 01:24:34,899 the people who get 1132 01:24:34,899 --> 01:24:36,433 visibility with that, 1133 01:24:36,433 --> 01:24:37,000 who create a 1134 01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:37,533 buzz and a clash, 1135 01:24:37,533 --> 01:24:38,100 it's actually helping 1136 01:24:38,100 --> 01:24:39,133 them. They get more 1137 01:24:39,133 --> 01:24:39,933 elected, they get 1138 01:24:39,933 --> 01:24:43,300 better. So, maybe 1139 01:24:43,300 --> 01:24:44,866 there's a way to 1140 01:24:45,533 --> 01:24:46,800 reduce that visibility 1141 01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:49,533 or to, let's say now you 1142 01:24:49,533 --> 01:24:50,333 have an advantage to 1143 01:24:50,333 --> 01:24:50,933 create a clash. 1144 01:24:50,933 --> 01:24:51,333 Maybe we could 1145 01:24:51,433 --> 01:24:52,366 think of some solution 1146 01:24:52,366 --> 01:24:53,933 to create a disadvantage 1147 01:24:53,933 --> 01:24:55,066 when using a clash. 1148 01:24:55,066 --> 01:24:55,633 Yeah, when 1149 01:24:55,633 --> 01:24:56,533 like this kind 1150 01:24:56,566 --> 01:24:57,533 of behavior is not 1151 01:24:57,533 --> 01:24:59,366 acceptable in a field. 1152 01:25:00,033 --> 01:25:02,833 Also, you know, there 1153 01:25:02,833 --> 01:25:03,633 are Italian politicians, 1154 01:25:04,066 --> 01:25:04,933 one of them 1155 01:25:05,199 --> 01:25:06,233 currently, who is 1156 01:25:06,233 --> 01:25:07,433 becoming super famous, 1157 01:25:07,433 --> 01:25:09,833 is the mayor of Perny. I 1158 01:25:09,833 --> 01:25:10,300 don't remember 1159 01:25:10,300 --> 01:25:11,000 his name and I 1160 01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:12,533 don't want to name it. 1161 01:25:13,066 --> 01:25:14,766 Because he said very 1162 01:25:14,766 --> 01:25:16,566 disgusting stuff about 1163 01:25:16,566 --> 01:25:18,233 women when dealing about 1164 01:25:18,399 --> 01:25:20,433 violence towards women. 1165 01:25:21,433 --> 01:25:23,833 And he basically told, 1166 01:25:24,633 --> 01:25:25,866 if a man sees a woman 1167 01:25:25,866 --> 01:25:27,066 walking on the street, 1168 01:25:27,300 --> 01:25:29,166 he is lucky he can have 1169 01:25:29,166 --> 01:25:30,833 sex with her. And if 1170 01:25:30,833 --> 01:25:32,100 he's not, then he goes 1171 01:25:32,100 --> 01:25:33,666 back home. And I mean, 1172 01:25:34,133 --> 01:25:34,866 so it basically was 1173 01:25:34,866 --> 01:25:37,733 diminishing the systemic 1174 01:25:37,733 --> 01:25:38,933 violence against women 1175 01:25:38,933 --> 01:25:40,000 that is a very big issue 1176 01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,233 in Italy. Extremely 1177 01:25:41,233 --> 01:25:42,233 irresponsible. It's very 1178 01:25:42,233 --> 01:25:43,133 respectable, it's 1179 01:25:43,133 --> 01:25:43,533 disgusting 1180 01:25:43,533 --> 01:25:44,433 that a politician 1181 01:25:44,733 --> 01:25:46,000 also because I said have 1182 01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:47,666 sex, but he obviously 1183 01:25:47,666 --> 01:25:49,266 uses an Italian slur 1184 01:25:49,266 --> 01:25:50,566 that is very vulgar and 1185 01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:51,833 should not be used in 1186 01:25:51,833 --> 01:25:52,899 any context, but should 1187 01:25:52,899 --> 01:25:54,333 not be used against like 1188 01:25:54,333 --> 01:25:54,866 when you're 1189 01:25:54,866 --> 01:25:55,300 talking about 1190 01:25:55,300 --> 01:25:56,199 violence towards women 1191 01:25:56,199 --> 01:25:57,100 is very disrespectful 1192 01:25:57,100 --> 01:25:58,433 and disgusting. You 1193 01:25:58,433 --> 01:25:58,899 would expect 1194 01:25:58,899 --> 01:25:59,933 this person to just 1195 01:25:59,933 --> 01:26:00,899 be destroyed by the 1196 01:26:00,899 --> 01:26:02,066 media, to just be like 1197 01:26:02,066 --> 01:26:04,066 this person is just a 1198 01:26:04,066 --> 01:26:04,933 man that should 1199 01:26:04,933 --> 01:26:05,833 not be seen on 1200 01:26:05,833 --> 01:26:07,133 television. And instead, 1201 01:26:07,133 --> 01:26:08,466 he is everywhere. And 1202 01:26:08,466 --> 01:26:09,600 there are men telling 1203 01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:10,766 him how finally someone 1204 01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:11,733 that is saying the 1205 01:26:11,733 --> 01:26:12,566 things how should be 1206 01:26:12,566 --> 01:26:14,033 said like man to man in 1207 01:26:14,033 --> 01:26:14,600 this way. And 1208 01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:15,366 for me, it's very 1209 01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:17,266 like I don't either get 1210 01:26:17,266 --> 01:26:18,733 angry, but I get also 1211 01:26:18,733 --> 01:26:20,533 very sad for this man. 1212 01:26:21,733 --> 01:26:22,566 And it's very depressing 1213 01:26:22,633 --> 01:26:24,000 that he thinks that to 1214 01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:25,133 reach an audience, he 1215 01:26:25,133 --> 01:26:26,066 has to behave like this. 1216 01:26:26,366 --> 01:26:27,233 For that man. I mean, 1217 01:26:27,466 --> 01:26:28,766 at the end, he manages 1218 01:26:28,766 --> 01:26:29,633 because you know, he did 1219 01:26:29,633 --> 01:26:30,366 the best. Now you 1220 01:26:30,366 --> 01:26:30,866 remember it. 1221 01:26:31,166 --> 01:26:32,166 Even now you're 1222 01:26:32,166 --> 01:26:33,666 doing advertisement. So 1223 01:26:33,666 --> 01:26:34,833 at the end, it's 1224 01:26:34,833 --> 01:26:36,233 working. This is the 1225 01:26:36,233 --> 01:26:37,100 worst part. So maybe, 1226 01:26:37,766 --> 01:26:38,733 yeah, we should find 1227 01:26:38,733 --> 01:26:40,833 some way that it's 1228 01:26:40,833 --> 01:26:41,899 impossible to do that. 1229 01:26:41,899 --> 01:26:42,566 So maybe in the media, 1230 01:26:42,966 --> 01:26:43,366 there should be 1231 01:26:43,366 --> 01:26:44,433 some kind of I don't 1232 01:26:44,433 --> 01:26:45,133 know if that would be a 1233 01:26:45,133 --> 01:26:46,433 good idea, some kind of 1234 01:26:46,433 --> 01:26:46,733 censorship 1235 01:26:46,733 --> 01:26:47,800 about that. Maybe 1236 01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:48,699 censorship is a strong 1237 01:26:48,699 --> 01:26:50,233 word. Yeah, maybe not. 1238 01:26:50,233 --> 01:26:50,800 But I mean, this is my 1239 01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:51,233 question at 1240 01:26:51,233 --> 01:26:52,333 the end, how to, 1241 01:26:53,033 --> 01:26:53,899 because now doing this 1242 01:26:53,899 --> 01:26:55,066 clash, doing this super 1243 01:26:55,066 --> 01:26:56,600 irrespective comments is 1244 01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:57,699 helping is like giving 1245 01:26:57,699 --> 01:26:59,133 visibility. So how can 1246 01:26:59,133 --> 01:27:00,800 we make it this this 1247 01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:01,699 incentive? Like, you 1248 01:27:01,699 --> 01:27:02,366 know, not an incentive. 1249 01:27:02,866 --> 01:27:04,966 I think it's a matter of 1250 01:27:04,966 --> 01:27:06,699 how the system works. If 1251 01:27:06,699 --> 01:27:07,633 the system keeps 1252 01:27:07,633 --> 01:27:08,433 advantaging these 1253 01:27:08,433 --> 01:27:10,033 people, it's a problem. 1254 01:27:10,033 --> 01:27:10,933 But then how can we 1255 01:27:10,933 --> 01:27:11,866 change that? Would you, 1256 01:27:11,866 --> 01:27:12,433 for example, 1257 01:27:12,433 --> 01:27:13,766 would you support a law 1258 01:27:13,766 --> 01:27:16,366 which maybe doesn't 1259 01:27:16,366 --> 01:27:17,166 sense or because that 1260 01:27:17,166 --> 01:27:17,666 would be against 1261 01:27:17,666 --> 01:27:18,333 freedom of speech, 1262 01:27:18,666 --> 01:27:19,566 but at least maybe just 1263 01:27:19,566 --> 01:27:20,266 like, you know, when you 1264 01:27:20,266 --> 01:27:20,633 smoke a 1265 01:27:20,633 --> 01:27:21,266 cigarette, there's a 1266 01:27:21,433 --> 01:27:22,433 message written saying, 1267 01:27:22,433 --> 01:27:23,033 hey, you shouldn't 1268 01:27:23,033 --> 01:27:24,033 smoke. That's not a nice 1269 01:27:24,033 --> 01:27:24,833 thing. And it's not 1270 01:27:24,833 --> 01:27:25,399 helpful for 1271 01:27:25,399 --> 01:27:26,399 your health. Maybe that 1272 01:27:26,399 --> 01:27:27,066 should be the same kind 1273 01:27:27,066 --> 01:27:28,266 of message. Hey, you're 1274 01:27:28,266 --> 01:27:29,133 being violent and you're 1275 01:27:29,133 --> 01:27:30,033 respectful. Yes, it does 1276 01:27:30,033 --> 01:27:30,833 the best, but it's not 1277 01:27:30,833 --> 01:27:31,699 healthy and nice for the 1278 01:27:31,699 --> 01:27:32,366 society. Yeah, 1279 01:27:32,433 --> 01:27:34,266 could also it would be a 1280 01:27:34,266 --> 01:27:36,433 more nicer, a nicer 1281 01:27:36,433 --> 01:27:37,666 word, if that could 1282 01:27:37,666 --> 01:27:39,533 happen. And 1283 01:27:39,533 --> 01:27:40,366 also, I think 1284 01:27:40,866 --> 01:27:42,366 we should stop to say 1285 01:27:42,366 --> 01:27:43,966 sentences like, you have 1286 01:27:43,966 --> 01:27:45,699 to detach the person 1287 01:27:45,699 --> 01:27:46,566 from what he 1288 01:27:46,566 --> 01:27:47,199 did in his life. 1289 01:27:47,633 --> 01:27:48,066 For instance, 1290 01:27:49,366 --> 01:27:50,699 think about the 1291 01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:00,533 in his personal life and 1292 01:28:00,533 --> 01:28:01,733 his political life and 1293 01:28:01,733 --> 01:28:02,766 people supporting him 1294 01:28:02,766 --> 01:28:03,399 started to 1295 01:28:03,399 --> 01:28:03,966 say, how about 1296 01:28:03,966 --> 01:28:06,500 you should separate him 1297 01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:08,333 as a politician and the 1298 01:28:08,333 --> 01:28:09,866 entrepreneur from his as 1299 01:28:09,866 --> 01:28:10,833 a human being. And I 1300 01:28:10,833 --> 01:28:12,566 started to ask myself, 1301 01:28:12,566 --> 01:28:13,766 but why should I do it? 1302 01:28:14,433 --> 01:28:15,500 Like, I'm not saying 1303 01:28:15,500 --> 01:28:17,933 that. I'm 1304 01:28:17,933 --> 01:28:19,466 not like saying 1305 01:28:19,466 --> 01:28:20,399 bad things about him. 1306 01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:21,533 I'm just questioning why 1307 01:28:21,533 --> 01:28:22,633 should I make this 1308 01:28:22,633 --> 01:28:23,033 separation? 1309 01:28:23,666 --> 01:28:24,699 This is not the 1310 01:28:24,733 --> 01:28:25,600 way it should be done. 1311 01:28:25,866 --> 01:28:27,066 Like, was he a nice 1312 01:28:27,066 --> 01:28:28,166 person or not? Is this 1313 01:28:28,166 --> 01:28:29,766 the question? And 1314 01:28:29,766 --> 01:28:30,733 if the answer is, 1315 01:28:31,233 --> 01:28:31,933 you should separate, 1316 01:28:32,133 --> 01:28:33,666 then I think I have the 1317 01:28:33,666 --> 01:28:34,699 answer of the question. 1318 01:28:35,866 --> 01:28:36,766 That's very, very good 1319 01:28:36,766 --> 01:28:38,666 point. And also, yeah, 1320 01:28:38,666 --> 01:28:39,333 because in a way, you're 1321 01:28:39,333 --> 01:28:40,600 saying that at the end, 1322 01:28:42,166 --> 01:28:43,033 it means that that 1323 01:28:43,033 --> 01:28:44,266 person is not putting 1324 01:28:44,266 --> 01:28:46,033 kindness in the in his 1325 01:28:46,033 --> 01:28:47,233 work and in the system 1326 01:28:47,233 --> 01:28:47,733 and thus is 1327 01:28:47,733 --> 01:28:49,066 not helping society. No, 1328 01:28:49,933 --> 01:28:50,666 that's very interesting. 1329 01:28:51,266 --> 01:28:52,433 So thank you very much 1330 01:28:52,433 --> 01:28:53,333 for all these ideas. No, 1331 01:28:53,766 --> 01:28:56,500 and I will just make a 1332 01:28:56,500 --> 01:28:57,966 short summary if I may, 1333 01:28:57,966 --> 01:28:59,033 then you add if I forgot 1334 01:28:59,033 --> 01:29:00,899 something. Basically, 1335 01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:02,033 I try to make a very 1336 01:29:02,033 --> 01:29:03,233 short summary. You're 1337 01:29:03,233 --> 01:29:05,100 saying that we should 1338 01:29:05,100 --> 01:29:05,866 get more kindness 1339 01:29:05,866 --> 01:29:06,466 in the workplace 1340 01:29:06,466 --> 01:29:08,466 just because that would 1341 01:29:08,466 --> 01:29:09,733 just make things nicer 1342 01:29:09,733 --> 01:29:12,000 for everybody. That's 1343 01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:13,199 quite a pretty 1344 01:29:13,199 --> 01:29:14,033 simple reason. 1345 01:29:14,633 --> 01:29:15,633 And for that, you're 1346 01:29:15,633 --> 01:29:18,133 saying that maybe what 1347 01:29:18,133 --> 01:29:18,866 happens when people are 1348 01:29:18,866 --> 01:29:19,233 in kindness 1349 01:29:19,233 --> 01:29:19,966 because they learn to 1350 01:29:20,033 --> 01:29:21,000 be on time. And for 1351 01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:22,666 example, in the academic 1352 01:29:22,666 --> 01:29:23,833 field, but also in 1353 01:29:23,833 --> 01:29:24,766 politics or in other 1354 01:29:24,766 --> 01:29:25,399 kinds of jobs, 1355 01:29:25,766 --> 01:29:26,466 maybe because also you 1356 01:29:26,466 --> 01:29:27,433 have an incentive to be 1357 01:29:27,433 --> 01:29:28,733 not nice in the sense 1358 01:29:28,733 --> 01:29:29,433 that it's 1359 01:29:29,433 --> 01:29:30,233 associated, at least, 1360 01:29:30,433 --> 01:29:31,566 I don't know, it's 1361 01:29:31,566 --> 01:29:32,433 associated in people's 1362 01:29:32,433 --> 01:29:33,133 mind, even though it 1363 01:29:33,133 --> 01:29:33,433 shouldn't be 1364 01:29:33,433 --> 01:29:34,800 the case with the 1365 01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:35,833 fact that you'll get 1366 01:29:35,833 --> 01:29:36,766 more successful. You'll 1367 01:29:36,766 --> 01:29:37,833 obtain more if you are 1368 01:29:37,833 --> 01:29:39,066 violent with others. 1369 01:29:39,066 --> 01:29:39,366 Like, if you 1370 01:29:39,366 --> 01:29:40,899 don't respect them or 1371 01:29:40,899 --> 01:29:41,966 not kind enough, then 1372 01:29:41,966 --> 01:29:42,833 maybe you'll get more of 1373 01:29:42,833 --> 01:29:43,899 it. And you're 1374 01:29:43,899 --> 01:29:44,733 saying that it's 1375 01:29:44,866 --> 01:29:46,766 maybe the wrong way to 1376 01:29:46,766 --> 01:29:47,666 see the things. And 1377 01:29:47,666 --> 01:29:49,033 actually being kind is 1378 01:29:49,033 --> 01:29:49,266 something 1379 01:29:49,266 --> 01:29:49,966 that could make 1380 01:29:49,966 --> 01:29:50,666 you as well successful 1381 01:29:50,666 --> 01:29:51,333 and you don't need to 1382 01:29:51,333 --> 01:29:52,033 compromise on your 1383 01:29:52,033 --> 01:29:55,266 values to get 1384 01:29:55,266 --> 01:29:56,000 the aims that 1385 01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:58,433 you want. And then we 1386 01:29:58,433 --> 01:29:59,800 were thinking about the 1387 01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:01,866 solution. So since it's 1388 01:30:01,866 --> 01:30:02,666 something that we learn, 1389 01:30:03,399 --> 01:30:03,933 for example, of the 1390 01:30:03,933 --> 01:30:05,133 education when we are 1391 01:30:05,133 --> 01:30:06,466 young or by seeing it 1392 01:30:06,466 --> 01:30:08,133 around, there 1393 01:30:08,133 --> 01:30:10,633 would be a solution. 1394 01:30:11,433 --> 01:30:12,866 Help me. But then there 1395 01:30:12,866 --> 01:30:13,333 will be at the 1396 01:30:13,333 --> 01:30:14,100 individual level, of 1397 01:30:14,100 --> 01:30:15,633 course, to be a model. 1398 01:30:15,899 --> 01:30:16,366 So that some 1399 01:30:16,366 --> 01:30:17,666 individuals identify 1400 01:30:17,666 --> 01:30:19,366 what's wrong with that 1401 01:30:19,366 --> 01:30:20,566 system and maybe change 1402 01:30:20,566 --> 01:30:21,066 themselves by 1403 01:30:21,066 --> 01:30:21,633 their own behavior. 1404 01:30:22,199 --> 01:30:23,199 And then there will also 1405 01:30:23,199 --> 01:30:24,300 be, we started to talk 1406 01:30:24,300 --> 01:30:25,133 about that at the end, 1407 01:30:25,466 --> 01:30:26,399 the idea that at a more 1408 01:30:26,399 --> 01:30:27,233 systemic level, there 1409 01:30:27,233 --> 01:30:28,833 could actually be one 1410 01:30:28,833 --> 01:30:31,133 solution, which is of 1411 01:30:31,133 --> 01:30:31,666 course to 1412 01:30:31,666 --> 01:30:32,566 revert the cycle, 1413 01:30:32,966 --> 01:30:34,533 but also seeing that the 1414 01:30:34,533 --> 01:30:35,500 cycle is also encouraged 1415 01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:37,366 by the visibility that 1416 01:30:37,366 --> 01:30:39,666 is given from people 1417 01:30:41,699 --> 01:30:43,566 who are unkind and 1418 01:30:43,566 --> 01:30:44,833 therefore maybe creating 1419 01:30:44,833 --> 01:30:46,500 some initiatives or not 1420 01:30:46,500 --> 01:30:47,333 giving as much 1421 01:30:47,333 --> 01:30:48,166 visibility to 1422 01:30:48,166 --> 01:30:49,566 emptiness. Is that a 1423 01:30:49,566 --> 01:30:50,433 good summary? A very 1424 01:30:50,433 --> 01:30:51,333 good summary. Yeah. 1425 01:30:51,333 --> 01:30:51,633 Okay. I'm 1426 01:30:51,633 --> 01:30:52,333 happy. Do you have 1427 01:30:52,333 --> 01:30:53,766 anything to add? No, I'm 1428 01:30:53,766 --> 01:30:54,733 very happy with our 1429 01:30:54,733 --> 01:30:57,000 conversation. Okay. So 1430 01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:58,966 thank you very much and 1431 01:30:59,033 --> 01:30:59,966 see you for the second 1432 01:30:59,966 --> 01:31:00,933 episode another time. 1433 01:31:01,833 --> 01:31:02,666 The podcast is brand 1434 01:31:02,666 --> 01:31:03,633 new. I hope you 1435 01:31:03,633 --> 01:31:04,133 found this first 1436 01:31:04,133 --> 01:31:05,433 episode promising. And 1437 01:31:05,433 --> 01:31:06,433 if it's the case, please 1438 01:31:06,433 --> 01:31:07,833 give it the best grade 1439 01:31:07,833 --> 01:31:08,766 on the platform which 1440 01:31:08,833 --> 01:31:09,633 you're using to listen 1441 01:31:09,633 --> 01:31:10,833 to it. This is so 1442 01:31:10,833 --> 01:31:11,533 important at the 1443 01:31:11,533 --> 01:31:12,766 beginning. So thank you 1444 01:31:12,766 --> 01:31:13,433 so much for that 1445 01:31:13,433 --> 01:31:14,166 and see you for 1446 01:31:14,166 --> 01:31:14,766 the next episode.