1 01:00:00,625 --> 01:00:01,291 The idea is very 2 01:00:01,291 --> 01:00:03,291 simple, to see if 3 01:00:03,291 --> 01:00:04,208 also the global 4 01:00:04,208 --> 01:00:07,250 system can be 5 01:00:07,250 --> 01:00:08,333 formed by 6 01:00:08,333 --> 01:00:08,958 some of the 7 01:00:08,958 --> 01:00:09,625 values and 8 01:00:09,625 --> 01:00:11,208 procedures of 9 01:00:11,208 --> 01:00:12,791 democracy, as we 10 01:00:12,791 --> 01:00:13,875 know it within 11 01:00:13,875 --> 01:00:14,500 countries. 12 01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:16,083 And therefore, is 13 01:00:16,083 --> 01:00:16,500 democracy 14 01:00:16,500 --> 01:00:17,250 something which 15 01:00:17,250 --> 01:00:18,041 applies only 16 01:00:18,041 --> 01:00:18,625 within the 17 01:00:18,625 --> 01:00:19,000 states, 18 01:00:19,625 --> 01:00:20,375 or can also 19 01:00:20,833 --> 01:00:22,416 be applied to the 20 01:00:22,416 --> 01:00:23,000 international 21 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,541 sphere, starting 22 01:00:24,541 --> 01:00:24,958 from 23 01:00:24,958 --> 01:00:25,458 international 24 01:00:25,458 --> 01:00:26,166 organizations? 25 01:00:28,666 --> 01:00:29,708 Daniele Archibugi 26 01:00:29,708 --> 01:00:30,500 works at the 27 01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:31,250 Italian National 28 01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:32,291 Research Council. 29 01:00:32,666 --> 01:00:33,666 He teaches at the 30 01:00:33,666 --> 01:00:34,708 University of London 31 01:00:34,708 --> 01:00:35,625 London 32 01:00:35,625 --> 01:00:36,166 Birkbeck College. 33 01:00:36,791 --> 01:00:38,000 30 years ago, he 34 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:38,666 was among those 35 01:00:38,666 --> 01:00:39,666 who suggested the 36 01:00:39,666 --> 01:00:40,708 political project 37 01:00:40,708 --> 01:00:41,916 of cosmopolitan 38 01:00:41,916 --> 01:00:42,666 democracy. 39 01:00:43,708 --> 01:00:44,958 I feel very lucky 40 01:00:44,958 --> 01:00:45,708 to have recorded 41 01:00:45,708 --> 01:00:46,541 this episode with 42 01:00:46,541 --> 01:00:47,500 him, and you will 43 01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:48,166 understand why 44 01:00:48,166 --> 01:00:48,708 immediately. 45 01:00:49,333 --> 01:00:50,458 My master's thesis, 46 01:00:50,708 --> 01:00:51,333 on which I have 47 01:00:51,333 --> 01:00:52,125 worked during 48 01:00:52,125 --> 01:00:53,291 months and months 49 01:00:53,291 --> 01:00:54,000 and months and 50 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:54,583 months, I'm 51 01:00:54,583 --> 01:00:55,166 sure many 52 01:00:55,166 --> 01:00:55,958 students can 53 01:00:55,958 --> 01:00:56,833 relate to that, 54 01:00:57,416 --> 01:00:58,958 was entitled "A 55 01:00:58,958 --> 01:00:59,416 comparison 56 01:00:59,416 --> 01:01:00,666 between 57 01:01:00,666 --> 01:01:01,583 Daniele Archibugi's 58 01:01:01,583 --> 01:01:02,166 and 59 01:01:02,166 --> 01:01:02,666 Thomas Pogge's 60 01:01:02,666 --> 01:01:03,208 political 61 01:01:03,208 --> 01:01:04,416 cosmopolitanisms". 62 01:01:05,125 --> 01:01:06,458 So yeah, quite an 63 01:01:06,458 --> 01:01:07,583 honor for me, and 64 01:01:07,583 --> 01:01:08,500 I hope that you 65 01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:09,000 will understand 66 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:09,416 with this 67 01:01:09,416 --> 01:01:10,125 talk why 68 01:01:10,250 --> 01:01:11,125 Daniele's ideas 69 01:01:11,125 --> 01:01:11,916 caught my 70 01:01:11,916 --> 01:01:12,375 attention 71 01:01:12,375 --> 01:01:13,458 so much. 72 01:01:15,083 --> 01:01:15,916 So the idea would 73 01:01:15,916 --> 01:01:16,875 be to say that 74 01:01:16,875 --> 01:01:17,833 right now we have 75 01:01:17,833 --> 01:01:19,750 democracy at the 76 01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:20,500 national level. 77 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:21,416 We don't have 78 01:01:21,416 --> 01:01:22,125 that at the 79 01:01:22,125 --> 01:01:22,416 international 80 01:01:22,416 --> 01:01:23,250 level, and you 81 01:01:23,250 --> 01:01:23,791 would like to 82 01:01:23,791 --> 01:01:23,958 make 83 01:01:23,958 --> 01:01:24,750 democracy happen 84 01:01:24,750 --> 01:01:25,083 at the 85 01:01:25,083 --> 01:01:25,375 international 86 01:01:25,375 --> 01:01:25,875 level. 87 01:01:26,416 --> 01:01:27,250 Yes, indeed, for 88 01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:27,708 a variety of 89 01:01:27,708 --> 01:01:28,208 reasons. 90 01:01:28,583 --> 01:01:29,166 First of all, 91 01:01:29,458 --> 01:01:29,583 because 92 01:01:29,583 --> 01:01:30,833 democracy, even 93 01:01:30,833 --> 01:01:31,666 within nations, 94 01:01:32,041 --> 01:01:33,250 is highly an 95 01:01:33,250 --> 01:01:33,875 uncompleted 96 01:01:33,875 --> 01:01:34,291 journey. 97 01:01:35,166 --> 01:01:36,500 We still need to 98 01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:37,625 progress in order 99 01:01:37,625 --> 01:01:38,708 to allow citizens 100 01:01:38,708 --> 01:01:40,458 to participate to 101 01:01:40,458 --> 01:01:40,625 the 102 01:01:40,625 --> 01:01:41,500 political sphere, 103 01:01:41,875 --> 01:01:44,208 to have more 104 01:01:44,208 --> 01:01:45,583 rights, and also 105 01:01:45,583 --> 01:01:46,125 more duties. 106 01:01:47,791 --> 01:01:49,333 But if you look 107 01:01:49,333 --> 01:01:49,791 at the 108 01:01:49,791 --> 01:01:50,250 international 109 01:01:50,250 --> 01:01:51,000 sphere, of 110 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:51,833 course, you don't 111 01:01:51,833 --> 01:01:52,666 see anything like 112 01:01:52,666 --> 01:01:53,291 democracy. 113 01:01:54,041 --> 01:01:55,333 Still, the only 114 01:01:55,333 --> 01:01:56,000 representatives 115 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:56,625 international 116 01:01:56,625 --> 01:01:57,625 seen are 117 01:01:57,625 --> 01:01:59,375 governments, even 118 01:01:59,375 --> 01:01:59,750 within 119 01:01:59,750 --> 01:02:00,291 international 120 01:02:00,375 --> 01:02:01,083 organizations. 121 01:02:01,875 --> 01:02:02,958 And this was also 122 01:02:02,958 --> 01:02:04,708 a major hampering 123 01:02:04,708 --> 01:02:05,583 factor of 124 01:02:05,583 --> 01:02:06,666 democracy within 125 01:02:06,666 --> 01:02:07,291 countries, 126 01:02:07,958 --> 01:02:09,125 because when 127 01:02:09,500 --> 01:02:10,291 many countries 128 01:02:10,291 --> 01:02:11,458 cannot decide 129 01:02:11,458 --> 01:02:12,500 what they're 130 01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:13,000 going to do 131 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:13,500 because of 132 01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:13,875 external 133 01:02:13,875 --> 01:02:15,541 forces, such 134 01:02:15,541 --> 01:02:17,291 as interest 135 01:02:17,291 --> 01:02:18,416 rates, capital 136 01:02:18,416 --> 01:02:19,000 flows, 137 01:02:19,666 --> 01:02:20,125 international 138 01:02:20,125 --> 01:02:21,708 trade, and so on, 139 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,125 we can say, 140 01:02:23,125 --> 01:02:24,000 "What is the 141 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:24,416 democracy 142 01:02:24,416 --> 01:02:25,041 inside?" 143 01:02:25,791 --> 01:02:26,291 And therefore, 144 01:02:26,291 --> 01:02:27,791 the basic idea is 145 01:02:27,791 --> 01:02:28,500 that in order to 146 01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:29,333 reinforce 147 01:02:29,333 --> 01:02:30,791 democracy within 148 01:02:30,791 --> 01:02:33,000 states, we need 149 01:02:33,250 --> 01:02:34,333 also to expand it 150 01:02:34,333 --> 01:02:34,666 at the 151 01:02:34,666 --> 01:02:35,000 international 152 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:35,541 level. 153 01:02:36,458 --> 01:02:37,625 Okay, so the idea 154 01:02:37,625 --> 01:02:39,375 is the more we 155 01:02:39,375 --> 01:02:40,416 manage to have 156 01:02:40,416 --> 01:02:41,583 democracy at the 157 01:02:41,583 --> 01:02:41,875 external 158 01:02:41,875 --> 01:02:42,333 level, the 159 01:02:42,375 --> 01:02:43,125 more it will also 160 01:02:43,125 --> 01:02:43,958 promote democracy 161 01:02:43,958 --> 01:02:44,833 internally at the 162 01:02:44,833 --> 01:02:45,666 national level. 163 01:02:45,666 --> 01:02:46,583 Hopefully, for a 164 01:02:46,583 --> 01:02:46,916 variety of 165 01:02:46,916 --> 01:02:48,041 reasons, first of 166 01:02:48,041 --> 01:02:49,083 all, because it 167 01:02:49,083 --> 01:02:49,583 means that 168 01:02:49,583 --> 01:02:50,333 people within 169 01:02:50,333 --> 01:02:51,791 states will have 170 01:02:51,791 --> 01:02:52,958 a see of what's 171 01:02:52,958 --> 01:02:53,625 happening at the 172 01:02:53,625 --> 01:02:53,958 international 173 01:02:53,958 --> 01:02:54,500 level. 174 01:02:55,083 --> 01:02:55,541 I mean, many 175 01:02:55,541 --> 01:02:56,250 issues of the 176 01:02:56,250 --> 01:02:56,708 contemporary 177 01:02:56,708 --> 01:02:58,416 society, climate 178 01:02:58,416 --> 01:03:02,166 change, financial 179 01:03:02,166 --> 01:03:03,791 flows, and so on, 180 01:03:04,208 --> 01:03:05,041 do not respect 181 01:03:05,041 --> 01:03:05,541 borders. 182 01:03:06,458 --> 01:03:07,041 And therefore, 183 01:03:07,041 --> 01:03:07,416 governments 184 01:03:07,416 --> 01:03:09,000 pretend to be in 185 01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:10,166 charge, but in 186 01:03:10,166 --> 01:03:10,416 fact, 187 01:03:10,416 --> 01:03:10,791 they are not. 188 01:03:11,583 --> 01:03:12,541 So a national 189 01:03:12,541 --> 01:03:13,458 government can do 190 01:03:13,458 --> 01:03:13,958 a lot of good 191 01:03:13,958 --> 01:03:15,375 policies in order 192 01:03:15,375 --> 01:03:15,833 to fight 193 01:03:15,833 --> 01:03:16,583 climate change. 194 01:03:17,250 --> 01:03:17,875 But if it plans 195 01:03:17,875 --> 01:03:18,583 to do it alone, 196 01:03:19,125 --> 01:03:20,208 it's very 197 01:03:20,208 --> 01:03:21,375 unlikely that it 198 01:03:21,375 --> 01:03:21,958 will succeed, 199 01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:22,833 especially 200 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:23,458 if it's a 201 01:03:23,458 --> 01:03:24,041 government of a 202 01:03:24,041 --> 01:03:24,666 small state. 203 01:03:25,791 --> 01:03:26,750 And that reason 204 01:03:26,750 --> 01:03:27,875 why more 205 01:03:27,875 --> 01:03:28,625 coordination is 206 01:03:28,625 --> 01:03:29,916 needed, that 207 01:03:29,916 --> 01:03:31,125 reason why quite 208 01:03:31,125 --> 01:03:31,500 a lot of 209 01:03:31,500 --> 01:03:32,166 things are 210 01:03:32,166 --> 01:03:32,958 already happening 211 01:03:32,958 --> 01:03:33,291 through 212 01:03:33,291 --> 01:03:33,916 international 213 01:03:33,916 --> 01:03:34,833 organizations. 214 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:37,000 But within 215 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:37,500 international 216 01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:38,416 organizations, 217 01:03:39,041 --> 01:03:39,375 the sole 218 01:03:39,375 --> 01:03:40,166 representatives 219 01:03:40,166 --> 01:03:41,208 are 220 01:03:41,208 --> 01:03:42,916 governments, not 221 01:03:42,916 --> 01:03:43,458 citizens. 222 01:03:43,875 --> 01:03:44,375 And that, I 223 01:03:44,375 --> 01:03:45,333 think, is an 224 01:03:45,333 --> 01:03:45,875 important 225 01:03:45,875 --> 01:03:46,750 hampering factor 226 01:03:46,750 --> 01:03:49,083 to introduce 227 01:03:49,083 --> 01:03:50,625 sound policies. 228 01:03:51,625 --> 01:03:52,166 So you say that 229 01:03:52,166 --> 01:03:53,000 more cooperation 230 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,625 is needed at the 231 01:03:54,625 --> 01:03:54,958 international 232 01:03:54,958 --> 01:03:55,500 level. 233 01:03:56,416 --> 01:03:57,291 To what 234 01:03:57,291 --> 01:03:58,291 extent do you go? 235 01:03:58,291 --> 01:03:59,000 Does it mean a 236 01:03:59,000 --> 01:03:59,625 world government? 237 01:04:00,958 --> 01:04:01,333 World government 238 01:04:01,333 --> 01:04:03,166 is a bit too much 239 01:04:03,166 --> 01:04:04,166 because we have 240 01:04:04,166 --> 01:04:04,916 got a lot of 241 01:04:04,916 --> 01:04:05,166 local 242 01:04:05,166 --> 01:04:06,541 problems which 243 01:04:06,541 --> 01:04:07,500 are well 244 01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:08,458 organized at the 245 01:04:08,458 --> 01:04:09,041 local level. 246 01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:09,958 And the 247 01:04:09,958 --> 01:04:10,500 communities are 248 01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:11,083 different. 249 01:04:11,083 --> 01:04:11,541 Each of these 250 01:04:11,541 --> 01:04:12,333 communities has 251 01:04:12,333 --> 01:04:13,000 its own values. 252 01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:16,000 So and even the 253 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:16,583 idea of world 254 01:04:16,583 --> 01:04:17,791 government goes 255 01:04:17,791 --> 01:04:18,708 together with the 256 01:04:18,708 --> 01:04:19,416 idea of 257 01:04:19,416 --> 01:04:20,708 coercive power. 258 01:04:21,791 --> 01:04:22,875 And a centralized 259 01:04:22,875 --> 01:04:24,541 coercive power is 260 01:04:24,541 --> 01:04:25,333 always dangerous. 261 01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:27,041 And therefore, if 262 01:04:27,041 --> 01:04:28,125 we speak about 263 01:04:28,125 --> 01:04:30,166 coercive power, I 264 01:04:30,166 --> 01:04:31,666 think it's wiser 265 01:04:31,666 --> 01:04:32,708 to keep it 266 01:04:32,708 --> 01:04:33,375 decentralized 267 01:04:34,083 --> 01:04:34,208 at 268 01:04:34,208 --> 01:04:35,041 different levels. 269 01:04:36,166 --> 01:04:37,166 So you say that 270 01:04:37,166 --> 01:04:37,875 it would be 271 01:04:37,875 --> 01:04:38,708 dangerous to have 272 01:04:38,708 --> 01:04:39,458 something too 273 01:04:39,458 --> 01:04:40,125 centralized. 274 01:04:40,125 --> 01:04:40,541 Do you mean 275 01:04:40,541 --> 01:04:41,208 because it would 276 01:04:41,208 --> 01:04:41,500 become 277 01:04:41,500 --> 01:04:42,041 authoritarian? 278 01:04:42,375 --> 01:04:42,833 Is that what you 279 01:04:42,833 --> 01:04:43,250 have in mind? 280 01:04:43,250 --> 01:04:43,750 That's the risk. 281 01:04:44,166 --> 01:04:44,500 If you 282 01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:45,666 concentrate all 283 01:04:45,666 --> 01:04:47,875 the force within 284 01:04:47,875 --> 01:04:49,333 one individual 285 01:04:49,333 --> 01:04:50,958 place, it's a bit 286 01:04:50,958 --> 01:04:51,791 dangerous that 287 01:04:51,791 --> 01:04:53,000 it might turn 288 01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:54,250 into a world 289 01:04:54,250 --> 01:04:54,666 dictatorship. 290 01:04:55,666 --> 01:04:56,166 And therefore, 291 01:04:56,166 --> 01:04:57,208 somehow it's good 292 01:04:57,208 --> 01:04:58,666 that there is a 293 01:04:58,666 --> 01:04:59,041 decentralized 294 01:04:59,041 --> 01:04:59,916 power. 295 01:05:00,666 --> 01:05:01,916 But I repeat, in 296 01:05:01,916 --> 01:05:04,625 order to get 297 01:05:04,625 --> 01:05:06,250 something done, 298 01:05:07,125 --> 01:05:08,041 we need more 299 01:05:08,041 --> 01:05:08,625 cooperation. 300 01:05:09,125 --> 01:05:09,291 Okay. 301 01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:10,791 So we need more 302 01:05:10,791 --> 01:05:11,416 cooperation, 303 01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:12,541 which means a bit 304 01:05:12,541 --> 01:05:12,708 more 305 01:05:12,708 --> 01:05:13,375 centralization, 306 01:05:13,625 --> 01:05:14,458 but not too much 307 01:05:14,458 --> 01:05:15,000 because it would 308 01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:15,583 be dangerous. 309 01:05:16,125 --> 01:05:16,541 So where would 310 01:05:16,541 --> 01:05:17,833 you situate the 311 01:05:17,833 --> 01:05:18,166 right 312 01:05:18,166 --> 01:05:18,625 equilibrium? 313 01:05:19,875 --> 01:05:20,291 That's a good 314 01:05:20,291 --> 01:05:20,583 question. 315 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:22,041 I think a very 316 01:05:22,041 --> 01:05:23,500 good example is the 317 01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:24,250 European Union. 318 01:05:24,958 --> 01:05:25,500 The European 319 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:26,250 Union has managed 320 01:05:26,250 --> 01:05:27,708 to, I think, 321 01:05:27,708 --> 01:05:28,041 something 322 01:05:28,041 --> 01:05:29,125 extraordinary, 323 01:05:29,875 --> 01:05:30,875 despite all the 324 01:05:30,875 --> 01:05:31,791 criticism 325 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:32,750 that we can put, 326 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:33,416 because the 327 01:05:33,416 --> 01:05:34,041 European Union 328 01:05:34,041 --> 01:05:35,000 has quite a lot 329 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:35,875 of common 330 01:05:35,875 --> 01:05:37,041 policies. 331 01:05:37,583 --> 01:05:38,958 It has even a 332 01:05:38,958 --> 01:05:40,125 common currency. 333 01:05:40,625 --> 01:05:41,250 But again, this 334 01:05:41,250 --> 01:05:42,250 common currency, 335 01:05:42,250 --> 01:05:43,041 the euro is not 336 01:05:43,041 --> 01:05:43,541 compulsory. 337 01:05:44,375 --> 01:05:45,000 And therefore, 338 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:45,625 some countries 339 01:05:45,625 --> 01:05:46,708 which do not feel 340 01:05:46,708 --> 01:05:48,375 to join the euro 341 01:05:48,375 --> 01:05:49,958 might opt out. 342 01:05:51,875 --> 01:05:52,375 And that, I 343 01:05:52,375 --> 01:05:53,750 think, is wise. 344 01:05:54,666 --> 01:05:56,000 And the European 345 01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:57,041 Union has not a 346 01:05:57,041 --> 01:05:58,083 centralized army. 347 01:05:59,458 --> 01:06:01,208 But still, it has 348 01:06:01,208 --> 01:06:02,083 a lot of policies 349 01:06:02,083 --> 01:06:02,750 and true 350 01:06:02,750 --> 01:06:04,416 incentives and 351 01:06:04,416 --> 01:06:05,208 soft power. 352 01:06:05,625 --> 01:06:06,875 It manages to 353 01:06:06,875 --> 01:06:08,583 foster even 354 01:06:08,583 --> 01:06:09,541 rights and 355 01:06:09,541 --> 01:06:10,333 democracy within 356 01:06:10,333 --> 01:06:11,708 member states, we 357 01:06:11,708 --> 01:06:12,333 see, with 358 01:06:12,333 --> 01:06:12,666 Hungary. 359 01:06:13,500 --> 01:06:14,208 If Hungary is 360 01:06:14,208 --> 01:06:16,041 moving towards an 361 01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:16,750 authoritarian 362 01:06:16,750 --> 01:06:20,000 situation, the 363 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:20,625 European Union 364 01:06:20,625 --> 01:06:21,291 might say, you 365 01:06:21,291 --> 01:06:21,708 know, you 366 01:06:21,708 --> 01:06:22,458 better stop. 367 01:06:23,125 --> 01:06:23,708 Otherwise, the 368 01:06:23,708 --> 01:06:24,291 other countries 369 01:06:24,291 --> 01:06:25,125 will not be 370 01:06:25,125 --> 01:06:28,208 willing to be in 371 01:06:28,208 --> 01:06:28,541 association 372 01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:29,333 with you. 373 01:06:30,208 --> 01:06:31,500 And the incentive 374 01:06:31,500 --> 01:06:33,291 to be part of the 375 01:06:33,291 --> 01:06:34,875 union are so 376 01:06:34,875 --> 01:06:36,458 strong that I 377 01:06:36,458 --> 01:06:37,375 think is 378 01:06:37,375 --> 01:06:37,958 something which 379 01:06:37,958 --> 01:06:38,583 is a balance. 380 01:06:39,416 --> 01:06:39,916 And it worked. 381 01:06:40,541 --> 01:06:41,250 For example, it 382 01:06:41,250 --> 01:06:42,375 doesn't work yet 383 01:06:42,375 --> 01:06:43,791 in Hungary, but 384 01:06:43,791 --> 01:06:45,416 it works quite 385 01:06:45,416 --> 01:06:46,250 well in Poland. 386 01:06:47,500 --> 01:06:47,791 Okay. 387 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,166 So that would be 388 01:06:50,166 --> 01:06:51,541 your wish. 389 01:06:51,833 --> 01:06:52,333 This is the 390 01:06:52,333 --> 01:06:52,750 cosmopolitan 391 01:06:52,750 --> 01:06:53,583 democracy that 392 01:06:53,583 --> 01:06:53,791 you're 393 01:06:53,791 --> 01:06:54,375 describing, 394 01:06:54,375 --> 01:06:54,583 right? 395 01:06:55,458 --> 01:06:55,750 That's correct. 396 01:06:56,333 --> 01:06:57,375 And since when 397 01:06:57,375 --> 01:06:58,083 did you start to 398 01:06:58,083 --> 01:06:58,708 have these ideas? 399 01:06:59,958 --> 01:07:01,250 Well, I mean, I 400 01:07:01,250 --> 01:07:02,041 started with the 401 01:07:02,041 --> 01:07:06,791 ideas in 1990. 402 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:08,708 And for a very 403 01:07:08,708 --> 01:07:09,375 specific 404 01:07:09,375 --> 01:07:10,083 historical 405 01:07:10,083 --> 01:07:11,958 condition, after 406 01:07:11,958 --> 01:07:14,583 the Cold War, the 407 01:07:14,583 --> 01:07:15,875 Soviet Empire 408 01:07:15,875 --> 01:07:16,500 collapsed 409 01:07:17,416 --> 01:07:18,375 thanks to the 410 01:07:18,375 --> 01:07:20,416 bravery of 411 01:07:20,416 --> 01:07:20,666 Mikhail 412 01:07:20,666 --> 01:07:21,125 Gorbachev. 413 01:07:22,416 --> 01:07:24,208 And we had hopes 414 01:07:24,208 --> 01:07:26,958 that the liberal 415 01:07:26,958 --> 01:07:27,583 democracies, 416 01:07:27,583 --> 01:07:28,500 which won the 417 01:07:28,500 --> 01:07:29,250 battle without 418 01:07:29,250 --> 01:07:30,625 fighting, without 419 01:07:30,625 --> 01:07:32,083 the war, could 420 01:07:32,083 --> 01:07:33,833 indeed expand the 421 01:07:33,833 --> 01:07:34,666 best of its 422 01:07:34,666 --> 01:07:36,291 values also to 423 01:07:36,291 --> 01:07:37,000 the east. 424 01:07:37,958 --> 01:07:38,625 And that somehow 425 01:07:38,625 --> 01:07:39,500 has succeeded 426 01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:41,291 because many 427 01:07:41,291 --> 01:07:41,833 European 428 01:07:41,833 --> 01:07:43,375 countries move to 429 01:07:43,375 --> 01:07:44,500 be democracies. 430 01:07:45,791 --> 01:07:46,583 And also, you 431 01:07:46,583 --> 01:07:46,791 know, the 432 01:07:46,791 --> 01:07:47,541 continent, for 433 01:07:47,541 --> 01:07:48,333 example, in Latin 434 01:07:48,333 --> 01:07:50,166 America, many 435 01:07:50,166 --> 01:07:50,708 countries 436 01:07:50,708 --> 01:07:51,291 move to be 437 01:07:51,291 --> 01:07:51,916 democratic in 438 01:07:51,916 --> 01:07:52,541 Latin America. 439 01:07:53,250 --> 01:07:54,208 And before that, 440 01:07:54,208 --> 01:07:55,166 they were run by 441 01:07:55,166 --> 01:07:56,041 dictatorships. 442 01:07:56,666 --> 01:07:57,875 So there was not 443 01:07:57,875 --> 01:07:58,791 only these two 444 01:07:58,791 --> 01:07:59,625 continents, also, 445 01:07:59,625 --> 01:07:59,916 you know, the 446 01:07:59,916 --> 01:08:00,333 continents. 447 01:08:00,875 --> 01:08:01,500 So there was very 448 01:08:01,500 --> 01:08:02,625 much a hope that 449 01:08:02,625 --> 01:08:04,625 a new wave of 450 01:08:04,625 --> 01:08:05,083 internal 451 01:08:05,083 --> 01:08:06,583 democracy might 452 01:08:06,583 --> 01:08:07,375 also have 453 01:08:07,375 --> 01:08:07,916 an impact 454 01:08:07,916 --> 01:08:08,166 on 455 01:08:08,166 --> 01:08:09,500 international scene. 456 01:08:10,541 --> 01:08:11,000 Unfortunately, 457 01:08:11,916 --> 01:08:12,125 Western 458 01:08:12,125 --> 01:08:13,833 democracies were 459 01:08:13,833 --> 01:08:15,541 not good enough 460 01:08:15,541 --> 01:08:17,250 to appreciate the 461 01:08:17,250 --> 01:08:18,500 change and to 462 01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:19,375 make something 463 01:08:19,375 --> 01:08:20,083 important. 464 01:08:20,666 --> 01:08:21,291 For example, 465 01:08:21,708 --> 01:08:23,541 rather than also 466 01:08:23,541 --> 01:08:24,208 opening to 467 01:08:24,208 --> 01:08:25,750 Russia, they 468 01:08:25,750 --> 01:08:26,833 started to oppose 469 01:08:26,833 --> 01:08:27,541 to Russia. 470 01:08:28,250 --> 01:08:28,791 And that was a 471 01:08:28,791 --> 01:08:29,250 disaster. 472 01:08:29,833 --> 01:08:30,458 It was a disaster 473 01:08:30,458 --> 01:08:31,833 because the 474 01:08:31,833 --> 01:08:33,000 Auto-Italian 475 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,375 forces, which in 476 01:08:34,375 --> 01:08:35,666 Russia has always 477 01:08:35,666 --> 01:08:36,125 been very 478 01:08:36,166 --> 01:08:37,833 strong, went back 479 01:08:37,833 --> 01:08:39,500 to power and took 480 01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:42,958 over the 481 01:08:42,958 --> 01:08:44,000 government and 482 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:44,416 the 483 01:08:44,416 --> 01:08:45,666 consequences is what 484 01:08:45,666 --> 01:08:46,583 we now see. 485 01:08:47,625 --> 01:08:48,208 So in a way, you 486 01:08:48,208 --> 01:08:49,541 would say, I 487 01:08:49,541 --> 01:08:50,625 mean, it means 488 01:08:50,625 --> 01:08:51,541 that as 489 01:08:51,541 --> 01:08:53,000 Europeans, we 490 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:53,958 have also our 491 01:08:53,958 --> 01:08:54,625 responsibility 492 01:08:54,833 --> 01:08:55,791 in what's 493 01:08:55,791 --> 01:08:56,625 happening now in 494 01:08:56,625 --> 01:08:57,875 the opposition 495 01:08:57,875 --> 01:08:59,541 between Russia 496 01:08:59,541 --> 01:09:01,000 and Western 497 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:01,541 countries. 498 01:09:01,875 --> 01:09:02,666 Yes, indeed. 499 01:09:03,208 --> 01:09:03,958 And that's not 500 01:09:03,958 --> 01:09:04,666 only we 501 01:09:04,666 --> 01:09:06,416 Europeans, we 502 01:09:06,416 --> 01:09:07,958 Westerns, because 503 01:09:07,958 --> 01:09:08,625 also the United 504 01:09:08,625 --> 01:09:09,666 States had 505 01:09:09,666 --> 01:09:10,583 a crucial 506 01:09:10,583 --> 01:09:11,833 role in 507 01:09:11,833 --> 01:09:13,375 this policy. 508 01:09:14,333 --> 01:09:15,583 And I think, you 509 01:09:15,583 --> 01:09:16,791 know, the idea of 510 01:09:16,791 --> 01:09:17,541 Gorbachev was 511 01:09:17,541 --> 01:09:18,458 where one single 512 01:09:18,458 --> 01:09:18,833 Europe 513 01:09:18,833 --> 01:09:19,916 from the Urals 514 01:09:19,916 --> 01:09:20,666 to the Atlantic 515 01:09:20,666 --> 01:09:22,291 was a very 516 01:09:22,291 --> 01:09:23,208 fruitful idea. 517 01:09:24,041 --> 01:09:24,541 And of course, 518 01:09:25,291 --> 01:09:26,791 perhaps Russia 519 01:09:26,791 --> 01:09:28,208 was too large to 520 01:09:28,208 --> 01:09:29,250 be integrated 521 01:09:29,250 --> 01:09:30,333 into the 522 01:09:30,333 --> 01:09:31,083 European Union. 523 01:09:31,916 --> 01:09:32,750 But still, we 524 01:09:32,750 --> 01:09:33,875 could have a more 525 01:09:33,875 --> 01:09:34,458 peaceful 526 01:09:34,458 --> 01:09:35,208 relationship. 527 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:36,500 And therefore, 528 01:09:36,500 --> 01:09:37,958 you know, that 529 01:09:37,958 --> 01:09:39,541 has not happened. 530 01:09:40,166 --> 01:09:40,791 And that has 531 01:09:40,791 --> 01:09:41,791 created something 532 01:09:41,791 --> 01:09:43,125 very difficult. 533 01:09:43,750 --> 01:09:44,291 I mean, there's 534 01:09:44,291 --> 01:09:45,083 no justification 535 01:09:45,083 --> 01:09:46,958 for the invasion 536 01:09:46,958 --> 01:09:47,583 of Ukraine. 537 01:09:48,916 --> 01:09:49,375 That's an 538 01:09:49,375 --> 01:09:50,708 invasion against 539 01:09:50,708 --> 01:09:50,958 the 540 01:09:50,958 --> 01:09:51,708 sovereign states. 541 01:09:52,458 --> 01:09:52,916 And therefore, 542 01:09:52,916 --> 01:09:53,166 there's no 543 01:09:53,166 --> 01:09:53,666 justification. 544 01:09:54,333 --> 01:09:55,125 But again, I 545 01:09:55,125 --> 01:09:55,958 think this could 546 01:09:55,958 --> 01:09:56,208 have been 547 01:09:56,208 --> 01:09:57,750 prevented by 548 01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:59,958 opening up to a 549 01:09:59,958 --> 01:10:00,625 collaborative 550 01:10:00,625 --> 01:10:01,125 agreement 551 01:10:01,625 --> 01:10:02,375 with Russia. 552 01:10:02,750 --> 01:10:03,083 And indeed, 553 01:10:03,333 --> 01:10:04,208 within the West, 554 01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:06,500 Europe had more 555 01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:08,333 interests to do 556 01:10:08,333 --> 01:10:09,875 that, because we 557 01:10:09,875 --> 01:10:10,291 are close 558 01:10:10,291 --> 01:10:11,000 to Russia, 559 01:10:11,458 --> 01:10:12,375 because we have 560 01:10:12,375 --> 01:10:13,625 larger 561 01:10:13,625 --> 01:10:14,541 interaction 562 01:10:14,541 --> 01:10:15,333 with Russia. 563 01:10:15,958 --> 01:10:16,750 And therefore, we 564 01:10:16,750 --> 01:10:17,208 should have been 565 01:10:17,208 --> 01:10:18,833 able to have more 566 01:10:18,833 --> 01:10:19,625 cooperation with 567 01:10:19,625 --> 01:10:20,833 Russia, as well 568 01:10:20,833 --> 01:10:21,625 as with North 569 01:10:21,625 --> 01:10:22,166 America. 570 01:10:23,125 --> 01:10:23,875 OK, so for you, 571 01:10:23,875 --> 01:10:24,541 the root of the 572 01:10:24,541 --> 01:10:25,125 problem comes 573 01:10:25,125 --> 01:10:27,125 from lack of 574 01:10:27,125 --> 01:10:28,375 cooperation and 575 01:10:28,375 --> 01:10:29,041 openness from 576 01:10:29,041 --> 01:10:29,500 the start. 577 01:10:31,125 --> 01:10:32,208 Now that we are 578 01:10:32,208 --> 01:10:33,750 having this kind 579 01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:36,166 of opposition, I 580 01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:37,125 mean, how to get 581 01:10:37,125 --> 01:10:37,666 out of this? 582 01:10:37,666 --> 01:10:38,375 Do you still 583 01:10:38,375 --> 01:10:38,916 believe that 584 01:10:38,916 --> 01:10:39,750 cooperation is 585 01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:40,666 possible or do 586 01:10:40,666 --> 01:10:41,125 you think now 587 01:10:41,125 --> 01:10:42,958 it's out of... 588 01:10:42,958 --> 01:10:43,500 It should be 589 01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:44,000 possible. 590 01:10:44,666 --> 01:10:45,208 Now, I think 591 01:10:45,208 --> 01:10:45,708 there is an 592 01:10:45,708 --> 01:10:46,208 important 593 01:10:46,208 --> 01:10:47,291 condition which 594 01:10:47,291 --> 01:10:48,791 needs to be to 595 01:10:48,791 --> 01:10:49,458 pay attention. 596 01:10:50,208 --> 01:10:51,041 And that's what 597 01:10:51,041 --> 01:10:51,708 an international 598 01:10:51,708 --> 01:10:52,791 relations is 599 01:10:52,791 --> 01:10:55,083 called the rally 600 01:10:55,083 --> 01:10:56,000 around the 601 01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:56,958 flag effect. 602 01:10:58,375 --> 01:10:58,666 What does 603 01:10:58,666 --> 01:10:59,000 it mean? 604 01:10:59,625 --> 01:11:00,750 Whenever there is 605 01:11:00,750 --> 01:11:03,416 a conflict, the 606 01:11:03,416 --> 01:11:05,291 population within 607 01:11:05,291 --> 01:11:06,125 one country 608 01:11:06,125 --> 01:11:07,500 starts to 609 01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:08,958 centralize around 610 01:11:09,208 --> 01:11:09,500 the wrong 611 01:11:09,500 --> 01:11:10,000 government. 612 01:11:12,291 --> 01:11:13,500 And when a 613 01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:14,541 government is in 614 01:11:14,541 --> 01:11:16,750 trouble, the easy 615 01:11:16,750 --> 01:11:18,583 way to get 616 01:11:18,583 --> 01:11:20,375 support 617 01:11:20,375 --> 01:11:21,541 internally 618 01:11:21,541 --> 01:11:22,916 is by waging 619 01:11:22,916 --> 01:11:23,333 a war. 620 01:11:24,333 --> 01:11:24,708 And that's 621 01:11:24,708 --> 01:11:26,041 precisely what 622 01:11:26,041 --> 01:11:27,208 Putin has done. 623 01:11:28,291 --> 01:11:29,291 But not only 624 01:11:29,291 --> 01:11:29,958 Putin, that 625 01:11:29,958 --> 01:11:30,916 precisely the 626 01:11:30,916 --> 01:11:32,333 reason why George 627 01:11:32,333 --> 01:11:36,000 W. Bush started 628 01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:37,000 the war in Iraq 629 01:11:37,291 --> 01:11:39,500 in 2003 against 630 01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:40,375 the massive 631 01:11:40,375 --> 01:11:41,333 mobilization of 632 01:11:41,333 --> 01:11:41,708 the public 633 01:11:41,708 --> 01:11:42,166 opinion. 634 01:11:42,625 --> 01:11:43,375 They were weak. 635 01:11:44,416 --> 01:11:45,500 They wanted to 636 01:11:45,500 --> 01:11:46,166 increase the 637 01:11:46,166 --> 01:11:46,541 support. 638 01:11:47,166 --> 01:11:47,833 How could they do 639 01:11:47,833 --> 01:11:48,833 that by 640 01:11:48,833 --> 01:11:49,625 waging a war? 641 01:11:50,625 --> 01:11:51,750 And that is 642 01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:52,583 terrible. 643 01:11:54,250 --> 01:11:55,250 So that's the 644 01:11:55,250 --> 01:11:55,833 reason why we 645 01:11:55,833 --> 01:11:56,666 need more 646 01:11:56,666 --> 01:11:59,166 democracy across 647 01:11:59,166 --> 01:11:59,666 borders. 648 01:12:00,500 --> 01:12:01,125 Because the 649 01:12:01,125 --> 01:12:02,333 Russian citizens 650 01:12:02,333 --> 01:12:03,250 should 651 01:12:03,250 --> 01:12:04,041 understand, and 652 01:12:04,041 --> 01:12:04,416 also the 653 01:12:04,416 --> 01:12:04,708 Ukrainian 654 01:12:04,708 --> 01:12:05,500 citizens should 655 01:12:05,500 --> 01:12:06,041 understand 656 01:12:06,500 --> 01:12:07,750 that the two 657 01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:09,291 countries do not 658 01:12:09,291 --> 01:12:10,500 have to fight. 659 01:12:10,916 --> 01:12:11,666 It's not in their 660 01:12:11,666 --> 01:12:12,125 interest. 661 01:12:12,708 --> 01:12:13,666 Neither Russia 662 01:12:13,666 --> 01:12:15,666 nor Ukraine to 663 01:12:15,666 --> 01:12:16,625 fight is in 664 01:12:16,625 --> 01:12:18,750 interest of the 665 01:12:18,750 --> 01:12:19,375 authoritarian 666 01:12:19,375 --> 01:12:20,125 Russian 667 01:12:20,125 --> 01:12:20,750 government, 668 01:12:21,250 --> 01:12:21,875 but not of 669 01:12:21,875 --> 01:12:22,250 the others. 670 01:12:23,541 --> 01:12:25,041 And countries can 671 01:12:25,041 --> 01:12:26,708 easily integrate 672 01:12:26,708 --> 01:12:27,625 among themselves. 673 01:12:28,916 --> 01:12:29,250 Boundaries can 674 01:12:29,250 --> 01:12:29,708 become 675 01:12:29,708 --> 01:12:31,791 irrelevant, as it 676 01:12:31,791 --> 01:12:32,541 is the case, for 677 01:12:32,541 --> 01:12:33,208 example, the 678 01:12:33,208 --> 01:12:34,250 boundary between 679 01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:35,208 France and 680 01:12:35,208 --> 01:12:35,666 Germany. 681 01:12:36,791 --> 01:12:37,416 Can you imagine? 682 01:12:37,583 --> 01:12:38,458 Now you move from 683 01:12:38,458 --> 01:12:39,041 one country to 684 01:12:39,041 --> 01:12:40,000 another, and you 685 01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:40,500 don't even 686 01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:41,083 realize 687 01:12:41,083 --> 01:12:43,666 when you pass 688 01:12:43,666 --> 01:12:44,250 the frontier. 689 01:12:44,875 --> 01:12:45,416 Because the two 690 01:12:45,416 --> 01:12:45,916 countries are 691 01:12:45,916 --> 01:12:46,416 strongly 692 01:12:46,416 --> 01:12:47,000 integrated. 693 01:12:47,875 --> 01:12:48,250 And therefore 694 01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:49,083 something similar 695 01:12:49,083 --> 01:12:49,625 could have been 696 01:12:49,625 --> 01:12:50,958 possible also 697 01:12:50,958 --> 01:12:52,541 among Russia and 698 01:12:52,541 --> 01:12:52,958 Ukraine. 699 01:12:54,541 --> 01:12:57,166 So when you say 700 01:12:57,166 --> 01:12:57,791 that they 701 01:12:57,791 --> 01:13:00,000 launched an 702 01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:00,750 attack, because 703 01:13:00,750 --> 01:13:01,583 also it's 704 01:13:01,583 --> 01:13:02,250 gathered support 705 01:13:02,250 --> 01:13:02,833 internally, 706 01:13:03,291 --> 01:13:03,666 do you think that 707 01:13:03,666 --> 01:13:04,083 it was done 708 01:13:04,083 --> 01:13:04,916 intentionally, or 709 01:13:04,916 --> 01:13:05,875 do you think it 710 01:13:05,875 --> 01:13:06,416 was just 711 01:13:06,416 --> 01:13:07,291 as a result? 712 01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:08,708 I think it was 713 01:13:08,708 --> 01:13:09,333 very much 714 01:13:09,333 --> 01:13:09,916 intentional. 715 01:13:10,791 --> 01:13:11,750 I think in the 716 01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:12,958 case of the 717 01:13:12,958 --> 01:13:13,375 Russian 718 01:13:13,375 --> 01:13:14,250 leadership, it 719 01:13:14,250 --> 01:13:14,916 was very much 720 01:13:14,916 --> 01:13:15,458 intentional. 721 01:13:16,583 --> 01:13:18,000 But again, I 722 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,166 think that that 723 01:13:19,166 --> 01:13:19,791 was criminal. 724 01:13:21,541 --> 01:13:22,458 And I am very 725 01:13:22,458 --> 01:13:23,750 happy that Putin 726 01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:26,500 has to face a 727 01:13:26,500 --> 01:13:27,583 criminal-inquired 728 01:13:27,583 --> 01:13:28,166 international 729 01:13:28,166 --> 01:13:28,666 criminal 730 01:13:28,750 --> 01:13:29,166 court. 731 01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:31,000 But I don't think 732 01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:32,208 that Putin is the sole 733 01:13:32,208 --> 01:13:32,708 responsible. 734 01:13:33,500 --> 01:13:34,250 I think that the 735 01:13:34,250 --> 01:13:35,000 European Union 736 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:36,375 should have 737 01:13:36,375 --> 01:13:37,041 managed the 738 01:13:37,041 --> 01:13:38,583 crisis better by 739 01:13:38,583 --> 01:13:39,416 respecting the 740 01:13:39,458 --> 01:13:40,375 Minsk agreements, 741 01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:44,125 by finding a 742 01:13:44,125 --> 01:13:45,416 solution among 743 01:13:45,416 --> 01:13:46,208 two countries 744 01:13:46,208 --> 01:13:46,750 which have a 745 01:13:46,750 --> 01:13:47,416 common history, 746 01:13:47,916 --> 01:13:48,375 a common 747 01:13:48,375 --> 01:13:50,333 heritage, and no 748 01:13:50,333 --> 01:13:51,666 reason and no 749 01:13:51,666 --> 01:13:53,000 interest to 750 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:53,500 which it was. 751 01:13:54,125 --> 01:13:54,791 I mean, if I can 752 01:13:54,791 --> 01:13:55,500 go on, you know, 753 01:13:55,500 --> 01:13:56,125 now I don't know 754 01:13:56,125 --> 01:13:56,791 what will happen. 755 01:13:57,416 --> 01:13:58,625 But can really 756 01:13:58,625 --> 01:13:59,791 Russian people 757 01:13:59,791 --> 01:14:01,583 think that move 758 01:14:01,583 --> 01:14:03,791 the frontier of 759 01:14:03,791 --> 01:14:04,750 100 kilometers 760 01:14:04,750 --> 01:14:06,666 will increase 761 01:14:06,791 --> 01:14:07,000 the 762 01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:08,041 security of Russia? 763 01:14:09,958 --> 01:14:11,000 I mean, what's 764 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,208 the meaning of 765 01:14:13,208 --> 01:14:14,083 this territorial 766 01:14:14,083 --> 01:14:15,666 gains in a 767 01:14:15,666 --> 01:14:16,333 situation in 768 01:14:16,333 --> 01:14:17,125 which there 769 01:14:17,125 --> 01:14:17,833 are strong 770 01:14:17,833 --> 01:14:18,875 interconnections, 771 01:14:19,333 --> 01:14:20,083 in which there 772 01:14:20,083 --> 01:14:21,083 are missiles 773 01:14:21,083 --> 01:14:22,333 which are much 774 01:14:22,333 --> 01:14:23,375 faster, much 775 01:14:23,375 --> 01:14:24,416 faster than any 776 01:14:24,416 --> 01:14:24,708 of these 777 01:14:24,708 --> 01:14:25,333 sorts of things? 778 01:14:25,958 --> 01:14:27,875 And so the 779 01:14:27,875 --> 01:14:28,666 Russian citizens 780 01:14:28,666 --> 01:14:29,875 are playing a 781 01:14:29,875 --> 01:14:30,833 high price 782 01:14:30,833 --> 01:14:32,875 because the young 783 01:14:32,875 --> 01:14:33,708 men are dying, 784 01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:36,000 often without 785 01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:37,083 even knowing why 786 01:14:37,083 --> 01:14:37,666 they're dying. 787 01:14:38,125 --> 01:14:38,666 They're spending 788 01:14:38,666 --> 01:14:39,166 a lot of 789 01:14:39,166 --> 01:14:40,500 resources in a 790 01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:41,125 country which 791 01:14:41,125 --> 01:14:43,416 still has a lot 792 01:14:43,416 --> 01:14:44,625 of poverty for 793 01:14:44,625 --> 01:14:45,125 the war. 794 01:14:46,125 --> 01:14:46,708 They have been 795 01:14:46,708 --> 01:14:47,666 internationally 796 01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:48,416 discredited. 797 01:14:49,791 --> 01:14:50,375 And therefore, 798 01:14:50,375 --> 01:14:53,250 you know, Russia 799 01:14:53,250 --> 01:14:55,958 is losing the war 800 01:14:55,958 --> 01:14:57,000 and they are 801 01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:57,333 starting 802 01:14:57,333 --> 01:14:58,166 to lose the 803 01:14:58,166 --> 01:14:59,666 war from the very 804 01:14:59,666 --> 01:15:00,708 first day in 805 01:15:00,708 --> 01:15:01,083 which they 806 01:15:01,083 --> 01:15:02,666 started the war. 807 01:15:04,750 --> 01:15:06,500 And it's a super 808 01:15:06,500 --> 01:15:07,208 serious topic. 809 01:15:07,458 --> 01:15:07,750 And at the same 810 01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:08,333 time, it made me 811 01:15:08,333 --> 01:15:08,916 laugh when you 812 01:15:08,916 --> 01:15:10,458 did this, like a 813 01:15:10,458 --> 01:15:10,750 real 814 01:15:10,750 --> 01:15:11,583 Italian showing 815 01:15:11,583 --> 01:15:12,333 how passionate 816 01:15:12,333 --> 01:15:12,958 you are 817 01:15:12,958 --> 01:15:13,833 about the topic. 818 01:15:13,833 --> 01:15:14,500 I mean, I can see 819 01:15:14,500 --> 01:15:15,000 it's very 820 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:16,375 something that is 821 01:15:16,375 --> 01:15:18,083 really taking you 822 01:15:18,083 --> 01:15:18,666 at heart, right? 823 01:15:18,666 --> 01:15:19,416 Yes, of course, 824 01:15:19,416 --> 01:15:19,916 because we have 825 01:15:19,916 --> 01:15:20,875 got friends in 826 01:15:20,875 --> 01:15:21,583 Russia and we 827 01:15:21,583 --> 01:15:22,125 have got friends 828 01:15:22,125 --> 01:15:22,666 in Ukraine. 829 01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:23,958 A lot of 830 01:15:23,958 --> 01:15:24,666 Ukrainians are 831 01:15:24,666 --> 01:15:26,250 living here and 832 01:15:26,250 --> 01:15:27,416 these people are 833 01:15:27,416 --> 01:15:27,875 suffering 834 01:15:27,875 --> 01:15:28,541 for what? 835 01:15:30,833 --> 01:15:31,208 For 100 836 01:15:31,208 --> 01:15:33,375 kilometers border 837 01:15:33,375 --> 01:15:35,000 in a situation in 838 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:35,541 which many of 839 01:15:35,541 --> 01:15:36,125 them travel 840 01:15:36,125 --> 01:15:37,750 abroad and so on. 841 01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:38,583 It's terrible. 842 01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:39,541 It's terrible. 843 01:15:39,916 --> 01:15:40,833 And I mean, it's 844 01:15:40,833 --> 01:15:41,208 not only 845 01:15:41,208 --> 01:15:42,041 criminal, I mean, 846 01:15:42,041 --> 01:15:42,708 certainly it's 847 01:15:42,708 --> 01:15:43,583 criminal, but 848 01:15:43,583 --> 01:15:44,041 it's stupid. 849 01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:46,166 And that's the 850 01:15:46,166 --> 01:15:47,041 basic problem. 851 01:15:47,583 --> 01:15:48,291 It is a 852 01:15:48,291 --> 01:15:49,291 stupid war. 853 01:15:50,125 --> 01:15:50,625 Yeah, because I 854 01:15:50,625 --> 01:15:52,750 mean, also what I 855 01:15:52,750 --> 01:15:53,250 understand from 856 01:15:53,250 --> 01:15:54,458 what you say is 857 01:15:54,458 --> 01:15:56,208 that it's, I 858 01:15:56,208 --> 01:15:56,416 mean, of 859 01:15:56,458 --> 01:15:56,666 course, 860 01:15:57,166 --> 01:15:58,541 Ukrainians are 861 01:15:58,541 --> 01:15:59,333 losing with that 862 01:15:59,333 --> 01:15:59,833 for sure. 863 01:16:00,333 --> 01:16:01,041 Europeans too, 864 01:16:01,041 --> 01:16:01,333 United States 865 01:16:01,333 --> 01:16:02,125 too, maybe the 866 01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:02,541 world because 867 01:16:02,541 --> 01:16:03,166 there is a war, 868 01:16:03,541 --> 01:16:04,291 but also Russians 869 01:16:04,291 --> 01:16:05,500 are losing and 870 01:16:05,500 --> 01:16:06,500 also Russia, even 871 01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:07,875 Putin is losing 872 01:16:07,875 --> 01:16:08,541 at the end. 873 01:16:08,541 --> 01:16:09,125 It's not even in 874 01:16:09,125 --> 01:16:09,583 his interest. 875 01:16:10,500 --> 01:16:11,250 Well, I mean, I 876 01:16:11,250 --> 01:16:11,666 don't know. 877 01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:13,250 I wonder if Putin 878 01:16:13,250 --> 01:16:14,500 would still be in 879 01:16:14,500 --> 01:16:15,625 charge without 880 01:16:15,625 --> 01:16:16,083 the war. 881 01:16:17,583 --> 01:16:18,041 Perhaps he 882 01:16:18,041 --> 01:16:18,666 wouldn't. 883 01:16:18,875 --> 01:16:19,458 I don't know. 884 01:16:19,666 --> 01:16:20,083 I don't know. 885 01:16:20,083 --> 01:16:20,791 But I mean, it's 886 01:16:20,791 --> 01:16:22,416 definitely, I 887 01:16:22,416 --> 01:16:23,083 mean, you cannot. 888 01:16:23,500 --> 01:16:24,333 That's one of the 889 01:16:24,333 --> 01:16:24,625 problems 890 01:16:24,625 --> 01:16:26,166 of Russia. 891 01:16:27,041 --> 01:16:28,208 It is not a 892 01:16:28,208 --> 01:16:28,458 genuine 893 01:16:28,458 --> 01:16:29,041 democracy. 894 01:16:29,750 --> 01:16:30,625 I'm not denying 895 01:16:30,625 --> 01:16:31,833 that Putin 896 01:16:31,833 --> 01:16:33,708 unfortunately has 897 01:16:33,708 --> 01:16:35,000 a strong internal 898 01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:35,541 support 899 01:16:35,541 --> 01:16:36,833 because he has 900 01:16:36,833 --> 01:16:37,291 a support, 901 01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:39,041 internal support. 902 01:16:39,500 --> 01:16:40,958 And that's the 903 01:16:40,958 --> 01:16:41,875 reason why he 904 01:16:41,875 --> 01:16:42,583 needs to keep 905 01:16:42,583 --> 01:16:43,875 fighting to 906 01:16:43,875 --> 01:16:44,541 preserve the 907 01:16:44,541 --> 01:16:45,000 support. 908 01:16:46,083 --> 01:16:47,375 While, and then I 909 01:16:47,375 --> 01:16:48,125 go back to my 910 01:16:48,125 --> 01:16:49,083 idea of cosmopolitan 911 01:16:49,083 --> 01:16:50,416 democracy, while 912 01:16:50,416 --> 01:16:51,000 if there would 913 01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:51,291 have been 914 01:16:51,333 --> 01:16:51,833 a stronger 915 01:16:51,833 --> 01:16:53,375 integration among 916 01:16:53,375 --> 01:16:55,916 the citizens of 917 01:16:55,916 --> 01:16:58,083 Ukraine and 918 01:16:58,083 --> 01:16:59,541 Russia, of 919 01:16:59,541 --> 01:17:00,625 Eastern 920 01:17:00,625 --> 01:17:01,500 Europe and 921 01:17:01,500 --> 01:17:02,416 Western Europe, 922 01:17:02,958 --> 01:17:04,291 the people could 923 01:17:04,291 --> 01:17:05,041 have understood. 924 01:17:05,625 --> 01:17:06,125 But why do 925 01:17:06,125 --> 01:17:06,541 we fight? 926 01:17:08,208 --> 01:17:08,916 I mean, there are 927 01:17:08,916 --> 01:17:09,291 an enormous 928 01:17:09,291 --> 01:17:10,166 amount of mixed 929 01:17:10,166 --> 01:17:11,875 families which 930 01:17:11,875 --> 01:17:13,041 speak Russian or 931 01:17:13,041 --> 01:17:13,583 Ukrainian. 932 01:17:14,750 --> 01:17:16,791 And they do not 933 01:17:16,791 --> 01:17:17,250 perceive 934 01:17:17,250 --> 01:17:18,166 the reason. 935 01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:18,666 They are 936 01:17:18,666 --> 01:17:19,958 suffering because 937 01:17:19,958 --> 01:17:21,125 even the family 938 01:17:21,125 --> 01:17:21,958 ties are often 939 01:17:21,958 --> 01:17:22,333 broken 940 01:17:22,333 --> 01:17:23,625 without reason. 941 01:17:25,166 --> 01:17:25,750 When you see this 942 01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:27,000 war happening in 943 01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:28,416 Russia and 944 01:17:28,416 --> 01:17:29,291 actually maybe 945 01:17:29,291 --> 01:17:29,583 other 946 01:17:29,583 --> 01:17:30,291 conflicts in the 947 01:17:30,291 --> 01:17:31,416 world, and maybe 948 01:17:31,416 --> 01:17:32,500 even we can see 949 01:17:32,500 --> 01:17:33,166 that democracy 950 01:17:33,166 --> 01:17:33,958 are actually 951 01:17:33,958 --> 01:17:35,666 being less and 952 01:17:35,666 --> 01:17:37,416 less influential 953 01:17:37,833 --> 01:17:38,500 in the world or 954 01:17:38,500 --> 01:17:39,083 just like there 955 01:17:39,083 --> 01:17:39,625 are less and less 956 01:17:39,625 --> 01:17:40,250 democracies in 957 01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:40,541 the world. 958 01:17:40,750 --> 01:17:41,291 I believe 959 01:17:41,291 --> 01:17:41,875 I'm not sure. 960 01:17:42,875 --> 01:17:43,375 Do you get 961 01:17:43,375 --> 01:17:44,458 discouraged about 962 01:17:44,458 --> 01:17:45,416 the project of 963 01:17:45,416 --> 01:17:46,000 cosmopolitan 964 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:46,541 democracy? 965 01:17:47,416 --> 01:17:48,083 Very discouraged. 966 01:17:48,625 --> 01:17:49,083 I mean, if you 967 01:17:49,083 --> 01:17:49,541 look at the 968 01:17:49,541 --> 01:17:50,833 latest report of 969 01:17:50,833 --> 01:17:51,375 international 970 01:17:51,375 --> 01:17:52,750 democracy and 971 01:17:52,750 --> 01:17:53,666 electoral 972 01:17:53,666 --> 01:17:54,291 assistance 973 01:17:54,416 --> 01:17:55,750 and organization 974 01:17:55,750 --> 01:17:57,250 in Stockholm, you 975 01:17:57,250 --> 01:17:58,000 will see that the 976 01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:58,333 political 977 01:17:58,333 --> 01:17:59,458 democracy is 978 01:17:59,458 --> 01:17:59,875 deteriorating. 979 01:18:00,791 --> 01:18:01,291 And it is 980 01:18:01,291 --> 01:18:01,875 deteriorating 981 01:18:01,875 --> 01:18:03,500 because in 982 01:18:03,500 --> 01:18:04,541 international 983 01:18:04,541 --> 01:18:08,208 conflicts, you 984 01:18:08,208 --> 01:18:09,916 don't have the 985 01:18:09,916 --> 01:18:10,875 resources to 986 01:18:11,333 --> 01:18:11,625 develop 987 01:18:11,625 --> 01:18:12,208 democracy. 988 01:18:12,958 --> 01:18:13,583 And we are seeing 989 01:18:13,583 --> 01:18:14,416 that in many 990 01:18:14,416 --> 01:18:14,833 democratic 991 01:18:14,833 --> 01:18:15,625 countries, the 992 01:18:15,625 --> 01:18:15,916 political 993 01:18:15,916 --> 01:18:16,958 democracy is 994 01:18:16,958 --> 01:18:17,458 deteriorating 995 01:18:17,500 --> 01:18:18,208 very much. 996 01:18:18,958 --> 01:18:19,916 And that's very, 997 01:18:19,916 --> 01:18:20,333 very bad. 998 01:18:21,041 --> 01:18:22,791 So I repeat, we 999 01:18:22,791 --> 01:18:23,916 have lost a 1000 01:18:23,916 --> 01:18:25,125 unique historical 1001 01:18:25,125 --> 01:18:27,458 location at the 1002 01:18:27,458 --> 01:18:27,708 beginning 1003 01:18:27,708 --> 01:18:28,583 of the 90s. 1004 01:18:28,958 --> 01:18:29,541 We should have 1005 01:18:29,541 --> 01:18:31,041 managed to expand 1006 01:18:31,041 --> 01:18:31,958 the cooperation. 1007 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:33,208 And 1008 01:18:33,208 --> 01:18:34,166 unfortunately, we 1009 01:18:34,166 --> 01:18:35,416 got more and more 1010 01:18:35,416 --> 01:18:37,083 under the control 1011 01:18:37,083 --> 01:18:39,916 of a few very 1012 01:18:39,916 --> 01:18:41,750 arrogant and 1013 01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:42,500 authoritarian 1014 01:18:42,916 --> 01:18:44,541 leaders often 1015 01:18:44,541 --> 01:18:46,708 supported by 1016 01:18:46,708 --> 01:18:48,375 wealthy people. 1017 01:18:49,041 --> 01:18:49,541 And that I think 1018 01:18:49,541 --> 01:18:50,125 is another 1019 01:18:50,125 --> 01:18:50,916 condition. 1020 01:18:51,666 --> 01:18:52,250 The idea of 1021 01:18:52,250 --> 01:18:53,750 democracy is that 1022 01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:54,750 all citizens 1023 01:18:54,750 --> 01:18:56,000 count equal 1024 01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:57,833 regardless of the 1025 01:18:57,833 --> 01:18:59,416 rich, the poor, 1026 01:18:59,625 --> 01:19:00,333 or whatever it is. 1027 01:19:01,250 --> 01:19:02,000 Now you really 1028 01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:03,333 see that not only 1029 01:19:03,333 --> 01:19:04,500 in Russia where 1030 01:19:04,500 --> 01:19:05,250 you really see 1031 01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:06,000 that oligarchs 1032 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,625 are controlling 1033 01:19:07,791 --> 01:19:08,500 the country, 1034 01:19:09,083 --> 01:19:09,500 oligarchs 1035 01:19:09,500 --> 01:19:10,166 exploiting 1036 01:19:10,166 --> 01:19:10,583 natural 1037 01:19:10,583 --> 01:19:11,833 resources, but 1038 01:19:11,833 --> 01:19:12,458 also in other 1039 01:19:12,458 --> 01:19:12,791 democratic 1040 01:19:12,791 --> 01:19:13,333 countries 1041 01:19:13,333 --> 01:19:15,000 such as the 1042 01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:15,750 United States, 1043 01:19:16,291 --> 01:19:17,041 such as 1044 01:19:17,041 --> 01:19:20,000 Argentina, money 1045 01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,791 can really decide 1046 01:19:21,791 --> 01:19:23,041 the political 1047 01:19:23,041 --> 01:19:23,541 process. 1048 01:19:24,125 --> 01:19:24,500 And that, of 1049 01:19:24,500 --> 01:19:24,958 course, is not 1050 01:19:24,958 --> 01:19:25,375 democracy. 1051 01:19:26,791 --> 01:19:27,250 Because we 1052 01:19:27,250 --> 01:19:27,791 are moving. 1053 01:19:27,791 --> 01:19:28,291 I mean, the idea 1054 01:19:28,291 --> 01:19:29,500 of democracy is 1055 01:19:29,500 --> 01:19:30,041 that you count 1056 01:19:30,041 --> 01:19:30,875 people, you don't 1057 01:19:30,875 --> 01:19:31,458 count money. 1058 01:19:32,166 --> 01:19:32,958 But if a certain 1059 01:19:32,958 --> 01:19:34,000 point within the 1060 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:34,375 electoral 1061 01:19:34,375 --> 01:19:35,791 campaigns, rich 1062 01:19:35,791 --> 01:19:36,666 people can lead 1063 01:19:36,666 --> 01:19:37,083 influence 1064 01:19:37,375 --> 01:19:37,916 or can even 1065 01:19:37,916 --> 01:19:39,500 buy votes. 1066 01:19:40,333 --> 01:19:41,333 In that case, you 1067 01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,041 see it's 1068 01:19:44,041 --> 01:19:46,041 democracy in 1069 01:19:46,041 --> 01:19:47,083 serious danger. 1070 01:19:47,708 --> 01:19:48,291 And so you see 1071 01:19:48,291 --> 01:19:48,875 this as a 1072 01:19:48,875 --> 01:19:49,875 problem, the role 1073 01:19:49,875 --> 01:19:51,083 of money inside 1074 01:19:51,083 --> 01:19:52,166 democracy when 1075 01:19:52,166 --> 01:19:52,708 there are already 1076 01:19:52,708 --> 01:19:53,416 democracies also 1077 01:19:53,416 --> 01:19:54,291 with countries 1078 01:19:54,291 --> 01:19:54,833 that are not 1079 01:19:54,833 --> 01:19:55,791 democratic yet? 1080 01:19:55,791 --> 01:19:56,166 In both. 1081 01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:57,625 I think that the 1082 01:19:57,625 --> 01:19:58,416 problem, I mean, 1083 01:19:58,958 --> 01:20:00,041 we always had an 1084 01:20:00,041 --> 01:20:01,208 equal access to 1085 01:20:01,208 --> 01:20:02,500 the political 1086 01:20:02,500 --> 01:20:02,958 process. 1087 01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:03,958 And in very 1088 01:20:03,958 --> 01:20:04,458 consolidated 1089 01:20:04,458 --> 01:20:05,833 democracy, I 1090 01:20:05,833 --> 01:20:08,750 mean, back in the 1091 01:20:08,750 --> 01:20:11,666 1960s, 1950s, the 1092 01:20:11,666 --> 01:20:12,458 owners of a 1093 01:20:12,458 --> 01:20:14,041 newspaper had 1094 01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:15,000 more power 1095 01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:17,583 compared to those 1096 01:20:17,583 --> 01:20:19,041 which didn't have 1097 01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:20,250 access to 1098 01:20:20,250 --> 01:20:20,791 information 1099 01:20:20,791 --> 01:20:23,625 means. 1100 01:20:23,875 --> 01:20:26,791 Likewise, when 1101 01:20:26,791 --> 01:20:28,333 private 1102 01:20:28,333 --> 01:20:28,791 television 1103 01:20:28,791 --> 01:20:30,875 started to be the 1104 01:20:30,875 --> 01:20:32,250 four, we are 1105 01:20:32,250 --> 01:20:32,791 seeing how 1106 01:20:32,791 --> 01:20:33,250 they could 1107 01:20:33,250 --> 01:20:34,750 shape the 1108 01:20:34,750 --> 01:20:35,083 political 1109 01:20:35,083 --> 01:20:35,583 process. 1110 01:20:36,083 --> 01:20:36,708 In Italy, for 1111 01:20:36,708 --> 01:20:37,416 example, it's 1112 01:20:37,416 --> 01:20:37,958 well-known, that 1113 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:38,750 Silvio Berlusconi 1114 01:20:38,750 --> 01:20:40,666 was influential 1115 01:20:40,666 --> 01:20:41,625 for so long 1116 01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:43,083 for many reasons, 1117 01:20:43,458 --> 01:20:44,166 but also because 1118 01:20:44,166 --> 01:20:44,833 he controlled 1119 01:20:44,833 --> 01:20:47,333 half of the TV 1120 01:20:47,333 --> 01:20:47,833 networks. 1121 01:20:49,416 --> 01:20:50,583 Now the situation 1122 01:20:50,583 --> 01:20:51,750 is even more 1123 01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:52,750 important because 1124 01:20:52,750 --> 01:20:53,375 we know with 1125 01:20:53,375 --> 01:20:53,625 social 1126 01:20:53,625 --> 01:20:55,000 networks, we have 1127 01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:56,500 social networks 1128 01:20:56,500 --> 01:20:57,625 entering into our 1129 01:20:57,625 --> 01:20:59,208 life and might 1130 01:20:59,208 --> 01:21:00,875 shape the way in 1131 01:21:00,875 --> 01:21:01,541 which we think 1132 01:21:01,541 --> 01:21:02,000 and which 1133 01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:03,625 we act much more 1134 01:21:03,625 --> 01:21:04,416 than newspapers 1135 01:21:04,416 --> 01:21:05,375 or televisions. 1136 01:21:06,250 --> 01:21:07,916 And if people 1137 01:21:07,916 --> 01:21:09,291 know how to use 1138 01:21:09,291 --> 01:21:09,708 the social 1139 01:21:09,708 --> 01:21:11,000 networks, of 1140 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:11,583 course, they have 1141 01:21:11,583 --> 01:21:12,250 a strong 1142 01:21:12,250 --> 01:21:13,958 political impact. 1143 01:21:14,541 --> 01:21:15,500 And that I think 1144 01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:16,125 should be taken 1145 01:21:16,125 --> 01:21:16,791 into account. 1146 01:21:17,541 --> 01:21:18,125 So we are very 1147 01:21:18,125 --> 01:21:19,166 much in a 1148 01:21:19,166 --> 01:21:19,875 situation in 1149 01:21:19,875 --> 01:21:21,166 which democracy 1150 01:21:21,166 --> 01:21:23,333 has been eroded. 1151 01:21:24,083 --> 01:21:25,541 So let me try to 1152 01:21:25,541 --> 01:21:27,166 unify a bit 1153 01:21:27,166 --> 01:21:27,458 everything 1154 01:21:27,458 --> 01:21:28,208 we are saying. 1155 01:21:28,708 --> 01:21:29,500 So first, there 1156 01:21:29,500 --> 01:21:30,541 is this idea of 1157 01:21:30,541 --> 01:21:30,958 cosmopolitan 1158 01:21:30,958 --> 01:21:32,208 democracy, this 1159 01:21:32,208 --> 01:21:33,250 dream, this 1160 01:21:33,250 --> 01:21:34,208 ideal, let's say, 1161 01:21:35,166 --> 01:21:36,166 and trying to 1162 01:21:36,166 --> 01:21:37,166 have democracy 1163 01:21:37,166 --> 01:21:37,916 everywhere 1164 01:21:37,916 --> 01:21:38,958 at all levels. 1165 01:21:39,958 --> 01:21:41,416 And then you have 1166 01:21:41,416 --> 01:21:42,875 the problem that 1167 01:21:42,875 --> 01:21:45,833 in 1990, when 1168 01:21:45,833 --> 01:21:46,166 there was the 1169 01:21:46,166 --> 01:21:47,583 possibility, it's 1170 01:21:47,583 --> 01:21:48,166 actually, 1171 01:21:48,791 --> 01:21:50,166 we actually made 1172 01:21:50,166 --> 01:21:50,625 mistakes. 1173 01:21:51,375 --> 01:21:52,208 And this created 1174 01:21:52,208 --> 01:21:52,916 more opposition 1175 01:21:52,916 --> 01:21:54,083 instead of more 1176 01:21:54,083 --> 01:21:54,958 cooperation. 1177 01:21:56,500 --> 01:21:57,541 And since, I 1178 01:21:57,541 --> 01:21:58,666 mean, now you're 1179 01:21:58,666 --> 01:21:59,500 saying also that 1180 01:21:59,500 --> 01:22:00,791 it's very hard to 1181 01:22:00,791 --> 01:22:01,416 change 1182 01:22:01,416 --> 01:22:02,291 the current 1183 01:22:02,333 --> 01:22:03,125 situation and 1184 01:22:03,125 --> 01:22:04,750 you're getting a 1185 01:22:04,750 --> 01:22:06,041 bit discouraged 1186 01:22:06,041 --> 01:22:06,791 at the situation, 1187 01:22:06,791 --> 01:22:07,541 which is actually 1188 01:22:07,541 --> 01:22:07,791 worsening 1189 01:22:08,083 --> 01:22:08,916 in respect to 1190 01:22:08,916 --> 01:22:09,500 cosmopolitan 1191 01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:10,041 democracy. 1192 01:22:10,916 --> 01:22:11,208 And there would 1193 01:22:11,208 --> 01:22:15,166 be three, I mean, 1194 01:22:15,166 --> 01:22:15,666 you mentioned at 1195 01:22:15,666 --> 01:22:16,666 least three ways 1196 01:22:16,666 --> 01:22:17,541 where we could 1197 01:22:17,541 --> 01:22:18,000 actually 1198 01:22:18,416 --> 01:22:19,333 make a change, 1199 01:22:19,666 --> 01:22:20,250 which is first 1200 01:22:20,250 --> 01:22:21,625 one, you say that 1201 01:22:21,625 --> 01:22:22,125 people maybe 1202 01:22:22,125 --> 01:22:22,833 should realize 1203 01:22:22,833 --> 01:22:23,416 what has 1204 01:22:23,416 --> 01:22:24,083 been happening 1205 01:22:24,083 --> 01:22:25,875 and realize that 1206 01:22:25,875 --> 01:22:27,000 there is no 1207 01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:28,083 reason for it to 1208 01:22:28,083 --> 01:22:29,000 be a war between 1209 01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:29,416 Russia and 1210 01:22:29,416 --> 01:22:29,750 Ukraine. 1211 01:22:30,666 --> 01:22:32,000 And so if people 1212 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:32,750 could get aware 1213 01:22:32,750 --> 01:22:33,416 of that, that 1214 01:22:33,416 --> 01:22:34,125 would make me 1215 01:22:34,125 --> 01:22:35,041 change something. 1216 01:22:36,208 --> 01:22:36,833 So, first, the 1217 01:22:36,833 --> 01:22:39,375 influence of 1218 01:22:39,375 --> 01:22:40,625 economy, of 1219 01:22:40,625 --> 01:22:43,375 wealth in the 1220 01:22:43,375 --> 01:22:44,208 political process 1221 01:22:44,208 --> 01:22:44,791 of both 1222 01:22:44,791 --> 01:22:45,208 democratic 1223 01:22:45,458 --> 01:22:45,791 and 1224 01:22:45,791 --> 01:22:46,541 non-democracy. 1225 01:22:47,291 --> 01:22:47,708 And third, 1226 01:22:49,083 --> 01:22:50,000 another kind of 1227 01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:50,708 power, another 1228 01:22:50,708 --> 01:22:51,375 kind of influence 1229 01:22:51,375 --> 01:22:51,916 with social 1230 01:22:51,916 --> 01:22:52,416 media, with 1231 01:22:52,541 --> 01:22:52,958 information. 1232 01:22:53,583 --> 01:22:54,583 Is it a good 1233 01:22:54,583 --> 01:22:54,916 summary? 1234 01:22:55,375 --> 01:22:56,041 I think it's a 1235 01:22:56,041 --> 01:22:56,666 good summary. 1236 01:22:56,666 --> 01:22:57,166 I mean, that's 1237 01:22:57,166 --> 01:22:57,708 some of the 1238 01:22:57,708 --> 01:22:58,291 problems we are 1239 01:22:58,291 --> 01:22:59,250 facing, you know, 1240 01:22:59,250 --> 01:23:02,000 but I mean, my 1241 01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:03,583 hope is that, 1242 01:23:03,708 --> 01:23:05,333 where is the 1243 01:23:05,333 --> 01:23:05,833 solution? 1244 01:23:07,041 --> 01:23:08,250 The solution is 1245 01:23:08,250 --> 01:23:09,166 in the fact that 1246 01:23:09,166 --> 01:23:10,125 we ask citizens 1247 01:23:10,125 --> 01:23:12,666 to participate 1248 01:23:12,666 --> 01:23:14,583 more in the 1249 01:23:14,583 --> 01:23:15,375 political sphere. 1250 01:23:15,583 --> 01:23:15,916 And that's 1251 01:23:15,916 --> 01:23:16,666 difficult because 1252 01:23:16,666 --> 01:23:17,750 if we can go back 1253 01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:18,333 to your 1254 01:23:18,333 --> 01:23:19,500 compatriote, 1255 01:23:19,500 --> 01:23:20,333 Benjamin Constant, 1256 01:23:20,791 --> 01:23:21,625 Benjamin Constant 1257 01:23:21,625 --> 01:23:23,041 made all these 1258 01:23:23,041 --> 01:23:24,333 famous papers 1259 01:23:24,333 --> 01:23:25,208 about the freedom 1260 01:23:25,208 --> 01:23:25,625 of the 1261 01:23:25,625 --> 01:23:26,250 Ancients and the 1262 01:23:26,250 --> 01:23:26,833 freedom of the 1263 01:23:26,833 --> 01:23:28,166 Moderns, which he 1264 01:23:28,166 --> 01:23:30,250 said, for 1265 01:23:30,250 --> 01:23:31,000 Ancients, the 1266 01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:31,666 freedom was to 1267 01:23:31,666 --> 01:23:32,166 participate. 1268 01:23:33,041 --> 01:23:33,625 For the modern, 1269 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:34,708 the freedom was 1270 01:23:34,708 --> 01:23:36,375 to delegate and 1271 01:23:36,375 --> 01:23:37,250 be free in the 1272 01:23:37,250 --> 01:23:38,166 private sphere. 1273 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:39,875 I think that's a 1274 01:23:39,875 --> 01:23:41,125 major problem and 1275 01:23:41,125 --> 01:23:41,875 the major problem 1276 01:23:41,875 --> 01:23:43,416 that we need to 1277 01:23:43,416 --> 01:23:44,083 go back to 1278 01:23:44,083 --> 01:23:44,458 the freedom 1279 01:23:44,458 --> 01:23:45,166 of the ancients, 1280 01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:45,875 namely to 1281 01:23:45,875 --> 01:23:46,916 participate more. 1282 01:23:47,958 --> 01:23:48,208 And to 1283 01:23:48,208 --> 01:23:48,958 participate more 1284 01:23:48,958 --> 01:23:49,291 is time 1285 01:23:49,291 --> 01:23:49,708 consuming. 1286 01:23:50,083 --> 01:23:50,625 People are not 1287 01:23:50,625 --> 01:23:50,833 willing 1288 01:23:50,833 --> 01:23:51,500 to do that. 1289 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:52,750 The majority of 1290 01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:54,166 young people are 1291 01:23:54,166 --> 01:23:55,416 less willing to 1292 01:23:55,416 --> 01:23:56,125 participate. 1293 01:23:56,125 --> 01:23:56,916 For example, they 1294 01:23:56,916 --> 01:23:57,541 are less likely 1295 01:23:57,541 --> 01:23:58,000 to go to 1296 01:23:58,000 --> 01:23:59,708 elections because 1297 01:23:59,708 --> 01:24:01,000 they are much, 1298 01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:02,000 much happier 1299 01:24:02,583 --> 01:24:03,750 to exercise the 1300 01:24:03,750 --> 01:24:04,541 freedom within 1301 01:24:04,541 --> 01:24:04,791 the 1302 01:24:04,791 --> 01:24:05,500 private sphere. 1303 01:24:06,708 --> 01:24:07,208 And they feel 1304 01:24:07,208 --> 01:24:07,708 that political 1305 01:24:07,708 --> 01:24:08,375 participation 1306 01:24:08,375 --> 01:24:10,125 within social 1307 01:24:10,125 --> 01:24:11,083 media is enough, 1308 01:24:11,083 --> 01:24:11,625 for example. 1309 01:24:12,708 --> 01:24:13,333 And that I think 1310 01:24:13,333 --> 01:24:13,916 is a serious 1311 01:24:13,916 --> 01:24:14,416 problem. 1312 01:24:14,708 --> 01:24:16,708 So, but I think 1313 01:24:16,708 --> 01:24:17,416 that on the 1314 01:24:17,416 --> 01:24:18,041 contrary, if you 1315 01:24:18,041 --> 01:24:19,166 will manage to 1316 01:24:19,166 --> 01:24:20,833 squeeze more 1317 01:24:20,833 --> 01:24:23,166 citizen 1318 01:24:23,166 --> 01:24:24,125 participation, 1319 01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,333 that can be a 1320 01:24:26,333 --> 01:24:28,916 counterbalance at 1321 01:24:28,916 --> 01:24:29,416 all levels, 1322 01:24:29,666 --> 01:24:30,416 within nations at 1323 01:24:30,416 --> 01:24:30,666 the global 1324 01:24:30,666 --> 01:24:32,458 level, to the 1325 01:24:32,500 --> 01:24:33,416 abuses of power 1326 01:24:33,416 --> 01:24:34,000 that we are 1327 01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:34,541 experiencing 1328 01:24:34,541 --> 01:24:35,083 today. 1329 01:24:35,833 --> 01:24:36,000 Okay. 1330 01:24:36,291 --> 01:24:37,458 So you're saying 1331 01:24:37,458 --> 01:24:38,291 there are abuses 1332 01:24:38,291 --> 01:24:38,875 of power, for 1333 01:24:38,875 --> 01:24:39,500 instance, with 1334 01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:40,541 people who 1335 01:24:40,541 --> 01:24:41,666 control too 1336 01:24:41,666 --> 01:24:42,625 much wealth and 1337 01:24:42,625 --> 01:24:43,083 people who 1338 01:24:43,083 --> 01:24:43,666 control too much 1339 01:24:43,666 --> 01:24:44,250 the information. 1340 01:24:44,708 --> 01:24:45,208 And the way to 1341 01:24:45,208 --> 01:24:46,000 counterbalance it 1342 01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:46,666 is to have more 1343 01:24:46,666 --> 01:24:47,500 citizens getting 1344 01:24:47,500 --> 01:24:49,000 engaged in the 1345 01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:49,375 democratic 1346 01:24:49,500 --> 01:24:49,958 system. 1347 01:24:50,875 --> 01:24:51,625 And it's indeed 1348 01:24:51,625 --> 01:24:52,791 then very 1349 01:24:52,791 --> 01:24:53,416 discouraging 1350 01:24:53,416 --> 01:24:54,208 because, I mean, 1351 01:24:54,208 --> 01:24:54,625 also the 1352 01:24:54,625 --> 01:24:55,333 statistics show 1353 01:24:55,333 --> 01:24:55,875 that new 1354 01:24:55,875 --> 01:24:56,875 generations are 1355 01:24:56,875 --> 01:24:57,875 even less 1356 01:24:57,875 --> 01:24:58,875 approving of 1357 01:24:58,875 --> 01:24:59,750 democracy than 1358 01:24:59,750 --> 01:25:00,375 the previous 1359 01:25:00,375 --> 01:25:00,833 generation. 1360 01:25:01,416 --> 01:25:03,500 Well, yes, I've 1361 01:25:03,500 --> 01:25:04,291 seen this data 1362 01:25:04,291 --> 01:25:05,666 and I am not sure 1363 01:25:05,666 --> 01:25:06,458 how to 1364 01:25:06,458 --> 01:25:07,166 interpret them. 1365 01:25:07,666 --> 01:25:08,083 One of the 1366 01:25:08,083 --> 01:25:08,666 reasons that 1367 01:25:08,666 --> 01:25:09,500 perhaps in some 1368 01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:10,208 countries, 1369 01:25:10,208 --> 01:25:10,458 younger 1370 01:25:10,458 --> 01:25:11,791 generations, have 1371 01:25:11,791 --> 01:25:12,583 not experienced 1372 01:25:12,916 --> 01:25:13,000 the 1373 01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:13,833 dictatorships, 1374 01:25:14,291 --> 01:25:15,166 such as in Italy, 1375 01:25:15,416 --> 01:25:16,541 Germany, and 1376 01:25:16,541 --> 01:25:17,041 therefore they 1377 01:25:17,041 --> 01:25:17,208 don't 1378 01:25:17,208 --> 01:25:18,041 really know what 1379 01:25:18,041 --> 01:25:18,625 the dictatorship 1380 01:25:18,625 --> 01:25:20,041 can be, you know. 1381 01:25:21,083 --> 01:25:22,291 But certainly 1382 01:25:22,291 --> 01:25:23,333 there is a very, 1383 01:25:23,333 --> 01:25:24,416 very dangerous 1384 01:25:24,416 --> 01:25:25,041 outcome. 1385 01:25:25,291 --> 01:25:26,375 And we know that 1386 01:25:26,375 --> 01:25:27,333 young people are 1387 01:25:27,333 --> 01:25:28,333 voting less than 1388 01:25:28,333 --> 01:25:28,958 old people, for 1389 01:25:28,958 --> 01:25:29,291 example. 1390 01:25:29,916 --> 01:25:30,333 So they don't 1391 01:25:30,333 --> 01:25:31,166 bother to go to 1392 01:25:31,166 --> 01:25:31,875 vote because they 1393 01:25:31,875 --> 01:25:32,458 are discouraged. 1394 01:25:33,458 --> 01:25:35,458 And so we need to 1395 01:25:35,458 --> 01:25:36,791 get more forms of 1396 01:25:36,791 --> 01:25:37,375 participation 1397 01:25:37,375 --> 01:25:38,166 which are also 1398 01:25:38,166 --> 01:25:39,375 associated to the 1399 01:25:39,375 --> 01:25:39,708 delivery 1400 01:25:39,791 --> 01:25:40,416 because young 1401 01:25:40,416 --> 01:25:42,000 people often are, 1402 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:42,875 for example, very 1403 01:25:42,875 --> 01:25:44,000 keen to 1404 01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:44,875 participate in 1405 01:25:44,875 --> 01:25:45,708 social movements. 1406 01:25:46,041 --> 01:25:46,750 Think about the 1407 01:25:46,750 --> 01:25:47,291 environment, 1408 01:25:47,708 --> 01:25:49,041 think about even 1409 01:25:49,041 --> 01:25:50,750 human rights, and 1410 01:25:50,750 --> 01:25:51,500 therefore they 1411 01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:51,833 are less 1412 01:25:51,833 --> 01:25:52,750 likely to vote 1413 01:25:52,750 --> 01:25:54,041 but more likely 1414 01:25:54,041 --> 01:25:54,875 to take 1415 01:25:54,875 --> 01:25:55,708 direct action. 1416 01:25:56,250 --> 01:25:56,625 And that's 1417 01:25:56,625 --> 01:25:57,000 good news. 1418 01:25:57,750 --> 01:25:58,333 Okay, yeah. 1419 01:25:59,125 --> 01:26:00,250 To go in your 1420 01:26:00,250 --> 01:26:01,208 sense from what 1421 01:26:01,208 --> 01:26:01,541 you were saying 1422 01:26:01,541 --> 01:26:02,000 at the very 1423 01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:02,375 beginning, 1424 01:26:02,708 --> 01:26:03,166 it's true. 1425 01:26:03,458 --> 01:26:03,791 I mean, in the 1426 01:26:03,791 --> 01:26:04,791 study that I've 1427 01:26:04,791 --> 01:26:05,291 seen about 1428 01:26:05,291 --> 01:26:05,666 younger 1429 01:26:05,666 --> 01:26:06,750 generations which 1430 01:26:06,750 --> 01:26:07,500 are less 1431 01:26:07,500 --> 01:26:07,791 approving 1432 01:26:07,791 --> 01:26:08,500 of democracy, 1433 01:26:08,958 --> 01:26:09,416 they were saying 1434 01:26:09,416 --> 01:26:10,000 that when there 1435 01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:11,208 was a populist 1436 01:26:11,208 --> 01:26:12,208 leader elected, 1437 01:26:12,916 --> 01:26:13,458 such as Donald 1438 01:26:13,458 --> 01:26:14,416 Trump in the US, 1439 01:26:14,416 --> 01:26:15,041 or at the time it 1440 01:26:15,041 --> 01:26:16,250 was Bolsonaro in 1441 01:26:16,250 --> 01:26:18,791 Brazil, people 1442 01:26:18,791 --> 01:26:19,875 were actually a 1443 01:26:19,875 --> 01:26:20,208 lot more 1444 01:26:20,208 --> 01:26:20,875 supportive of 1445 01:26:20,875 --> 01:26:21,416 democracy 1446 01:26:21,416 --> 01:26:21,958 afterwards. 1447 01:26:22,416 --> 01:26:23,208 But I also don't 1448 01:26:23,208 --> 01:26:24,041 know how to 1449 01:26:24,041 --> 01:26:24,916 interpret it if 1450 01:26:24,916 --> 01:26:25,500 it's because they 1451 01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:26,666 were satisfied 1452 01:26:26,666 --> 01:26:27,416 with this 1453 01:26:27,541 --> 01:26:28,625 new powerful 1454 01:26:28,625 --> 01:26:30,000 leaders, and this 1455 01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:30,750 is what made them 1456 01:26:30,750 --> 01:26:31,750 like more their 1457 01:26:31,750 --> 01:26:32,083 current 1458 01:26:32,083 --> 01:26:33,208 regime, or if 1459 01:26:33,208 --> 01:26:33,875 it's because they 1460 01:26:33,875 --> 01:26:35,000 thought on the 1461 01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:35,916 opposite, "Oh, we 1462 01:26:35,916 --> 01:26:37,208 had this, so 1463 01:26:37,208 --> 01:26:37,833 actually we 1464 01:26:37,833 --> 01:26:38,208 absolutely 1465 01:26:38,333 --> 01:26:39,000 need more 1466 01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:39,458 democracy." 1467 01:26:40,208 --> 01:26:40,791 I don't know in 1468 01:26:40,791 --> 01:26:41,416 which sense to 1469 01:26:41,416 --> 01:26:42,000 interpret that. 1470 01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:42,625 Well, I mean, I 1471 01:26:42,625 --> 01:26:43,500 think both 1472 01:26:43,500 --> 01:26:44,125 interpretation 1473 01:26:44,125 --> 01:26:44,958 and legitimate, 1474 01:26:45,291 --> 01:26:45,916 we need to have, 1475 01:26:45,916 --> 01:26:46,291 and possibly 1476 01:26:46,375 --> 01:26:46,791 both of 1477 01:26:46,791 --> 01:26:47,333 them are there. 1478 01:26:48,041 --> 01:26:49,250 So I think that 1479 01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:50,500 indeed every time 1480 01:26:50,500 --> 01:26:51,791 there is an 1481 01:26:51,791 --> 01:26:52,333 authoritarian 1482 01:26:52,333 --> 01:26:53,583 change, people 1483 01:26:53,583 --> 01:26:54,291 get scared. 1484 01:26:55,666 --> 01:26:57,625 Again, the 1485 01:26:57,625 --> 01:26:58,416 elections in the 1486 01:26:58,416 --> 01:26:59,125 United States are 1487 01:26:59,125 --> 01:27:00,625 worrying because 1488 01:27:00,625 --> 01:27:01,083 the American 1489 01:27:01,083 --> 01:27:02,291 public knew 1490 01:27:02,291 --> 01:27:03,791 very well who 1491 01:27:03,791 --> 01:27:05,916 Donald Trump is 1492 01:27:05,916 --> 01:27:07,125 and what Donald 1493 01:27:07,125 --> 01:27:08,041 Trump has done as 1494 01:27:08,041 --> 01:27:08,416 former 1495 01:27:08,416 --> 01:27:09,291 president of the 1496 01:27:09,291 --> 01:27:10,083 United States. 1497 01:27:11,208 --> 01:27:11,750 And therefore, 1498 01:27:11,750 --> 01:27:13,041 this is a sign 1499 01:27:13,041 --> 01:27:13,333 that 1500 01:27:13,333 --> 01:27:14,708 unfortunately we 1501 01:27:14,708 --> 01:27:15,125 cannot 1502 01:27:15,125 --> 01:27:15,958 unconditionally 1503 01:27:15,958 --> 01:27:17,333 rely on the 1504 01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:17,791 wiseness 1505 01:27:17,791 --> 01:27:18,041 of the 1506 01:27:18,041 --> 01:27:18,500 population. 1507 01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:20,166 And that also 1508 01:27:20,166 --> 01:27:23,666 tells us that 1509 01:27:23,666 --> 01:27:25,333 more effort is 1510 01:27:25,333 --> 01:27:26,083 needed in order 1511 01:27:26,083 --> 01:27:29,791 to involve people 1512 01:27:29,791 --> 01:27:30,500 in the 1513 01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:31,125 decision-making 1514 01:27:31,208 --> 01:27:31,708 process. 1515 01:27:32,458 --> 01:27:34,958 Yeah, it's very 1516 01:27:34,958 --> 01:27:35,791 difficult and 1517 01:27:35,791 --> 01:27:36,500 paradoxical 1518 01:27:36,500 --> 01:27:37,166 because I mean, 1519 01:27:37,625 --> 01:27:38,875 on the one hand, 1520 01:27:39,166 --> 01:27:39,916 we want to 1521 01:27:39,916 --> 01:27:40,500 have people 1522 01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:41,666 participate even 1523 01:27:41,666 --> 01:27:42,916 more, and then 1524 01:27:42,916 --> 01:27:44,666 maybe you are 1525 01:27:44,666 --> 01:27:45,416 disappointed with 1526 01:27:45,416 --> 01:27:46,333 the result, 1527 01:27:46,333 --> 01:27:46,708 with what they 1528 01:27:46,708 --> 01:27:47,875 choose in the 1529 01:27:47,875 --> 01:27:48,166 democracy. 1530 01:27:49,083 --> 01:27:50,166 Yes, I agree. 1531 01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:51,208 But still, I 1532 01:27:51,208 --> 01:27:52,416 mean, we 1533 01:27:52,416 --> 01:27:53,125 shouldn't forget 1534 01:27:53,125 --> 01:27:53,958 that the large 1535 01:27:53,958 --> 01:27:55,625 number of the 1536 01:27:55,625 --> 01:27:57,000 voters do not go 1537 01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:57,416 to vote. 1538 01:27:57,833 --> 01:27:58,208 Yeah, yeah. 1539 01:27:58,375 --> 01:27:58,958 And now it's a 1540 01:27:58,958 --> 01:27:59,541 problem within 1541 01:27:59,541 --> 01:27:59,875 the United 1542 01:27:59,875 --> 01:28:00,791 States, it's a 1543 01:28:00,791 --> 01:28:02,000 problem in a 1544 01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:02,333 country 1545 01:28:02,333 --> 01:28:03,666 with a higher 1546 01:28:03,666 --> 01:28:05,625 turnout, such as 1547 01:28:05,625 --> 01:28:05,958 the United 1548 01:28:05,958 --> 01:28:06,500 Kingdom. 1549 01:28:07,208 --> 01:28:08,416 It starts to be a 1550 01:28:08,416 --> 01:28:09,166 problem, also in 1551 01:28:09,166 --> 01:28:09,958 countries such as 1552 01:28:09,958 --> 01:28:10,916 Italy or 1553 01:28:10,916 --> 01:28:11,583 such as Spain. 1554 01:28:12,458 --> 01:28:13,000 Those countries 1555 01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:13,666 experience the 1556 01:28:13,666 --> 01:28:15,791 dictatorships and 1557 01:28:15,791 --> 01:28:17,583 we had perhaps 1558 01:28:17,583 --> 01:28:18,208 also as a 1559 01:28:18,208 --> 01:28:18,750 consequence, 1560 01:28:19,416 --> 01:28:19,958 very high 1561 01:28:19,958 --> 01:28:20,416 electoral 1562 01:28:20,416 --> 01:28:20,875 turnout. 1563 01:28:22,083 --> 01:28:22,541 And that should 1564 01:28:22,541 --> 01:28:23,000 be the beginning 1565 01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:23,541 to count. 1566 01:28:24,500 --> 01:28:28,083 So again, to 1567 01:28:28,083 --> 01:28:29,625 repeat, there is 1568 01:28:29,625 --> 01:28:30,500 a basic problem 1569 01:28:30,500 --> 01:28:31,875 that people are 1570 01:28:31,875 --> 01:28:33,666 less inclined to 1571 01:28:33,666 --> 01:28:34,125 participate 1572 01:28:34,291 --> 01:28:34,916 in the political 1573 01:28:34,916 --> 01:28:35,541 process. 1574 01:28:35,541 --> 01:28:35,750 They are 1575 01:28:35,750 --> 01:28:36,166 discouraged 1576 01:28:36,166 --> 01:28:37,041 about that. 1577 01:28:37,125 --> 01:28:39,125 Yeah, I think 1578 01:28:39,125 --> 01:28:40,583 this is a bit the 1579 01:28:40,583 --> 01:28:41,416 situation where 1580 01:28:41,416 --> 01:28:43,375 people don't have 1581 01:28:43,375 --> 01:28:44,333 the taste anymore 1582 01:28:44,375 --> 01:28:45,125 for democracy. 1583 01:28:45,541 --> 01:28:46,500 And I mean, this 1584 01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:47,500 is one theory I 1585 01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:48,583 mentioned in one 1586 01:28:48,583 --> 01:28:49,250 previous episode 1587 01:28:49,250 --> 01:28:49,666 for the 1588 01:28:49,666 --> 01:28:50,166 people who 1589 01:28:50,166 --> 01:28:51,375 actually saw the 1590 01:28:51,375 --> 01:28:51,916 previous ones. 1591 01:28:52,500 --> 01:28:52,916 I was thinking 1592 01:28:52,916 --> 01:28:54,250 that maybe, I 1593 01:28:54,250 --> 01:28:54,625 mean, it's what 1594 01:28:54,625 --> 01:28:56,166 you said, maybe 1595 01:28:56,166 --> 01:28:57,166 younger people, 1596 01:28:57,541 --> 01:28:58,083 including 1597 01:28:58,291 --> 01:28:59,250 me, we have never 1598 01:28:59,250 --> 01:28:59,708 experienced 1599 01:28:59,708 --> 01:29:00,541 dictatorship, so 1600 01:29:00,541 --> 01:29:01,083 we don't know 1601 01:29:01,083 --> 01:29:01,500 really what 1602 01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:02,000 it's like. 1603 01:29:02,625 --> 01:29:03,416 And maybe we are 1604 01:29:03,416 --> 01:29:05,291 just bored of 1605 01:29:05,291 --> 01:29:06,000 democracy, which 1606 01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:06,750 is very sad 1607 01:29:06,750 --> 01:29:07,333 because it has 1608 01:29:07,333 --> 01:29:07,708 huge 1609 01:29:07,708 --> 01:29:08,375 consequences. 1610 01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:09,458 But just because 1611 01:29:09,458 --> 01:29:10,166 we are bored, 1612 01:29:10,166 --> 01:29:11,291 maybe we thrive 1613 01:29:11,291 --> 01:29:11,791 for something 1614 01:29:11,791 --> 01:29:12,208 else, for 1615 01:29:12,208 --> 01:29:12,500 something 1616 01:29:12,500 --> 01:29:12,916 different. 1617 01:29:13,291 --> 01:29:13,916 Yeah, yeah, 1618 01:29:14,541 --> 01:29:14,958 that's the 1619 01:29:14,958 --> 01:29:15,250 problem. 1620 01:29:15,625 --> 01:29:15,833 That's the 1621 01:29:15,833 --> 01:29:16,125 problem. 1622 01:29:16,375 --> 01:29:16,958 But again, I 1623 01:29:16,958 --> 01:29:18,208 repeat, we see 1624 01:29:18,208 --> 01:29:19,083 that there is a 1625 01:29:19,083 --> 01:29:19,791 willingness to 1626 01:29:19,791 --> 01:29:20,375 participate. 1627 01:29:21,250 --> 01:29:21,666 And therefore, 1628 01:29:21,666 --> 01:29:22,250 you know, also 1629 01:29:22,250 --> 01:29:22,791 the political 1630 01:29:22,791 --> 01:29:23,500 process should 1631 01:29:23,500 --> 01:29:25,750 sometimes be able 1632 01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:27,916 to include 1633 01:29:28,416 --> 01:29:29,291 and ask citizens 1634 01:29:29,291 --> 01:29:32,500 to participate in 1635 01:29:32,500 --> 01:29:33,041 something which 1636 01:29:33,041 --> 01:29:33,708 is visible. 1637 01:29:34,458 --> 01:29:34,833 And again, 1638 01:29:35,125 --> 01:29:36,291 democracy is not 1639 01:29:36,291 --> 01:29:36,875 only about 1640 01:29:36,875 --> 01:29:38,791 rights, it is 1641 01:29:38,791 --> 01:29:38,958 also 1642 01:29:38,958 --> 01:29:39,750 about duties. 1643 01:29:40,666 --> 01:29:41,541 And if we speak 1644 01:29:41,541 --> 01:29:43,333 about duties, it 1645 01:29:43,333 --> 01:29:44,291 means that more 1646 01:29:44,291 --> 01:29:45,125 people need to 1647 01:29:45,125 --> 01:29:46,583 participate in 1648 01:29:46,583 --> 01:29:47,041 the political 1649 01:29:47,083 --> 01:29:47,625 process. 1650 01:29:48,750 --> 01:29:49,583 Yeah, so it 1651 01:29:49,583 --> 01:29:50,125 should not be 1652 01:29:50,125 --> 01:29:50,833 only considered 1653 01:29:50,833 --> 01:29:51,708 as a right or so 1654 01:29:51,708 --> 01:29:52,666 like a duty, 1655 01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:53,416 something that 1656 01:29:53,625 --> 01:29:54,250 people feel they 1657 01:29:54,250 --> 01:29:54,916 have to do. 1658 01:29:55,041 --> 01:29:56,416 Obligations, that 1659 01:29:56,416 --> 01:29:57,125 I think are very 1660 01:29:57,125 --> 01:29:57,500 important. 1661 01:29:57,916 --> 01:29:58,916 I think the point 1662 01:29:58,916 --> 01:29:59,625 you make about 1663 01:29:59,625 --> 01:30:00,166 the fact that 1664 01:30:00,166 --> 01:30:01,125 many people would 1665 01:30:01,125 --> 01:30:01,958 actually be 1666 01:30:01,958 --> 01:30:02,875 very happy 1667 01:30:02,875 --> 01:30:05,375 to get, I mean, 1668 01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:06,416 to get more 1669 01:30:06,416 --> 01:30:06,791 involved 1670 01:30:06,791 --> 01:30:07,291 actively. 1671 01:30:07,291 --> 01:30:07,583 There are many 1672 01:30:07,583 --> 01:30:08,000 people, 1673 01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:08,458 you're right. 1674 01:30:08,458 --> 01:30:08,708 I mean, in 1675 01:30:08,708 --> 01:30:09,500 France, it's 1676 01:30:09,500 --> 01:30:11,416 quite very 1677 01:30:11,416 --> 01:30:12,125 visible how 1678 01:30:12,125 --> 01:30:12,875 people want to 1679 01:30:12,875 --> 01:30:13,958 strike and, you 1680 01:30:13,958 --> 01:30:14,250 know, the 1681 01:30:14,250 --> 01:30:15,125 gilets jaunes or 1682 01:30:15,125 --> 01:30:15,625 this kind of 1683 01:30:15,625 --> 01:30:16,375 phenomena where 1684 01:30:16,375 --> 01:30:17,458 people actually 1685 01:30:17,458 --> 01:30:19,083 really go in the 1686 01:30:19,083 --> 01:30:19,500 street and 1687 01:30:19,500 --> 01:30:20,500 really have a 1688 01:30:20,500 --> 01:30:22,791 politically 1689 01:30:22,791 --> 01:30:23,791 committed, 1690 01:30:23,791 --> 01:30:24,083 you know. 1691 01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:27,000 So it's very also 1692 01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:28,041 paradoxical and 1693 01:30:28,041 --> 01:30:28,666 maybe it could be 1694 01:30:28,666 --> 01:30:30,041 a key, what we've 1695 01:30:30,041 --> 01:30:30,791 just said before, 1696 01:30:30,791 --> 01:30:31,416 that maybe people 1697 01:30:31,416 --> 01:30:32,416 are bored with 1698 01:30:32,416 --> 01:30:33,875 democracy, with 1699 01:30:33,875 --> 01:30:34,333 the political 1700 01:30:34,333 --> 01:30:34,958 regime, but at 1701 01:30:34,958 --> 01:30:35,250 the same 1702 01:30:35,250 --> 01:30:36,833 time they have so 1703 01:30:36,833 --> 01:30:37,583 much political 1704 01:30:37,583 --> 01:30:38,916 energy and the 1705 01:30:38,916 --> 01:30:39,791 willingness to 1706 01:30:39,791 --> 01:30:41,500 get committed 1707 01:30:41,500 --> 01:30:42,041 politically. 1708 01:30:42,666 --> 01:30:44,208 So maybe the 1709 01:30:44,208 --> 01:30:45,500 problem, I'm 1710 01:30:45,500 --> 01:30:46,416 trying something, 1711 01:30:46,416 --> 01:30:46,958 maybe the problem 1712 01:30:46,958 --> 01:30:47,458 is that we 1713 01:30:47,458 --> 01:30:48,041 haven't found 1714 01:30:48,166 --> 01:30:50,166 yet a way to make 1715 01:30:50,166 --> 01:30:51,875 democracy or the 1716 01:30:51,875 --> 01:30:52,625 political life 1717 01:30:52,625 --> 01:30:53,958 more interesting 1718 01:30:53,958 --> 01:30:54,250 and 1719 01:30:54,250 --> 01:30:55,333 stimulating in the 1720 01:30:55,333 --> 01:30:56,375 way that 1721 01:30:56,375 --> 01:30:57,375 satisfies the 1722 01:30:57,375 --> 01:30:57,958 people, you know, 1723 01:30:57,958 --> 01:30:58,541 that stimulates 1724 01:30:58,541 --> 01:30:59,375 them and really 1725 01:30:59,375 --> 01:31:00,458 makes them more 1726 01:31:00,458 --> 01:31:01,333 fulfilled. 1727 01:31:01,791 --> 01:31:02,958 Yes, and that's 1728 01:31:02,958 --> 01:31:03,500 something. 1729 01:31:03,500 --> 01:31:03,916 I mean, I think 1730 01:31:03,916 --> 01:31:04,291 that, for 1731 01:31:04,291 --> 01:31:04,875 example, if 1732 01:31:04,875 --> 01:31:05,416 people will be 1733 01:31:05,416 --> 01:31:05,958 asked to 1734 01:31:05,958 --> 01:31:07,041 participate more, 1735 01:31:07,791 --> 01:31:08,125 they will 1736 01:31:08,125 --> 01:31:09,000 understand also 1737 01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:10,875 better what the 1738 01:31:10,875 --> 01:31:11,291 relationship 1739 01:31:11,291 --> 01:31:12,791 between the 1740 01:31:12,791 --> 01:31:13,333 delivery of 1741 01:31:13,333 --> 01:31:13,625 public 1742 01:31:13,625 --> 01:31:14,458 goods and the 1743 01:31:14,458 --> 01:31:15,583 movement, you 1744 01:31:15,583 --> 01:31:17,416 know, and there 1745 01:31:17,416 --> 01:31:18,958 is a lot of very 1746 01:31:18,958 --> 01:31:19,333 limited 1747 01:31:19,333 --> 01:31:20,041 information. 1748 01:31:21,083 --> 01:31:22,333 I mean, I can 1749 01:31:22,333 --> 01:31:23,083 provide plenty of 1750 01:31:23,083 --> 01:31:23,750 examples. 1751 01:31:25,416 --> 01:31:26,291 For example, in 1752 01:31:26,291 --> 01:31:27,791 the majority of 1753 01:31:27,791 --> 01:31:28,500 public transport 1754 01:31:28,500 --> 01:31:29,291 is provided by 1755 01:31:29,291 --> 01:31:29,750 the government, 1756 01:31:30,083 --> 01:31:30,708 you know, local 1757 01:31:31,125 --> 01:31:31,250 government. 1758 01:31:32,375 --> 01:31:33,125 Citizens do not 1759 01:31:33,125 --> 01:31:34,166 really know what 1760 01:31:34,166 --> 01:31:34,958 are the costs 1761 01:31:34,958 --> 01:31:37,708 associated to it. 1762 01:31:38,708 --> 01:31:39,333 They don't have 1763 01:31:39,333 --> 01:31:40,250 an idea of how 1764 01:31:40,250 --> 01:31:41,458 much is paid by 1765 01:31:41,458 --> 01:31:42,750 the ticket and 1766 01:31:42,750 --> 01:31:43,625 how much is paid 1767 01:31:43,625 --> 01:31:44,791 by general 1768 01:31:44,791 --> 01:31:45,458 taxation. 1769 01:31:46,041 --> 01:31:46,708 If they will know 1770 01:31:46,708 --> 01:31:47,250 something more 1771 01:31:47,250 --> 01:31:48,000 about the costs, 1772 01:31:48,625 --> 01:31:49,541 perhaps they will 1773 01:31:49,541 --> 01:31:50,791 also, you know, 1774 01:31:50,791 --> 01:31:51,125 understand 1775 01:31:51,291 --> 01:31:51,791 better the 1776 01:31:51,791 --> 01:31:52,208 choices. 1777 01:31:52,583 --> 01:31:53,291 And, by the way, 1778 01:31:53,625 --> 01:31:54,583 this will be a 1779 01:31:54,583 --> 01:31:55,208 very strong 1780 01:31:55,208 --> 01:31:56,041 incentive to 1781 01:31:56,041 --> 01:31:56,916 increase 1782 01:31:56,916 --> 01:31:59,000 efficiency 1783 01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:00,041 in the public 1784 01:32:00,041 --> 01:32:01,583 sector and also 1785 01:32:01,583 --> 01:32:02,041 to reduce 1786 01:32:02,041 --> 01:32:02,583 corruption. 1787 01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:04,500 To go in your 1788 01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:05,416 sense, I mean, I 1789 01:32:05,416 --> 01:32:06,041 have a personal 1790 01:32:06,041 --> 01:32:06,500 anecdote 1791 01:32:06,500 --> 01:32:07,125 about that. 1792 01:32:07,166 --> 01:32:09,333 I went in for I 1793 01:32:09,333 --> 01:32:09,833 had to buy a 1794 01:32:09,833 --> 01:32:10,250 medicine. 1795 01:32:11,250 --> 01:32:12,500 I think it was 1796 01:32:12,500 --> 01:32:13,500 given for free or 1797 01:32:13,500 --> 01:32:14,916 like very minimal 1798 01:32:14,916 --> 01:32:15,500 amount of 1799 01:32:15,500 --> 01:32:16,000 five euros. 1800 01:32:16,333 --> 01:32:17,541 And I've learned 1801 01:32:17,541 --> 01:32:20,416 later that what I 1802 01:32:20,416 --> 01:32:21,791 had bought was 1803 01:32:21,791 --> 01:32:22,583 actually worth 1804 01:32:22,583 --> 01:32:23,500 100 euros. 1805 01:32:24,625 --> 01:32:25,625 And I didn't even 1806 01:32:25,625 --> 01:32:26,416 feel it, you 1807 01:32:26,416 --> 01:32:26,833 know, like, I 1808 01:32:26,833 --> 01:32:27,500 mean, it had been 1809 01:32:27,500 --> 01:32:28,166 one year I 1810 01:32:28,166 --> 01:32:28,500 was taking 1811 01:32:28,500 --> 01:32:29,166 this medicine 1812 01:32:29,166 --> 01:32:29,875 without actually 1813 01:32:29,875 --> 01:32:30,625 understanding it. 1814 01:32:30,875 --> 01:32:31,666 And I was just 1815 01:32:31,666 --> 01:32:33,166 paying 100 euros 1816 01:32:33,166 --> 01:32:33,708 per month. 1817 01:32:33,750 --> 01:32:34,375 But actually, no, 1818 01:32:34,375 --> 01:32:35,083 I was paying zero 1819 01:32:35,083 --> 01:32:36,208 euro and not 1820 01:32:36,208 --> 01:32:36,916 realizing how 1821 01:32:36,916 --> 01:32:38,083 much it's worth. 1822 01:32:38,333 --> 01:32:39,125 That again is 1823 01:32:39,125 --> 01:32:39,666 something that 1824 01:32:39,666 --> 01:32:40,000 the government 1825 01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:40,708 should inform 1826 01:32:40,708 --> 01:32:41,416 about that. 1827 01:32:41,625 --> 01:32:41,833 Yeah. 1828 01:32:42,291 --> 01:32:42,583 Wouldn't be 1829 01:32:42,583 --> 01:32:43,500 difficult to say, 1830 01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:43,875 you know, 1831 01:32:43,875 --> 01:32:45,250 according to our 1832 01:32:45,250 --> 01:32:46,291 general estimate, 1833 01:32:46,708 --> 01:32:47,375 you go to 1834 01:32:47,375 --> 01:32:48,000 the bus, 1835 01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:49,541 you pay 1.50€ 1836 01:32:49,541 --> 01:32:50,500 the ticket 1837 01:32:50,791 --> 01:32:51,625 But the ride 1838 01:32:51,625 --> 01:32:52,708 costs 6€. 1839 01:32:53,708 --> 01:32:55,125 And you pay 1840 01:32:55,125 --> 01:32:56,041 because I mean, 1841 01:32:56,041 --> 01:32:56,541 of course, it's 1842 01:32:56,541 --> 01:32:56,916 always the 1843 01:32:56,916 --> 01:32:57,291 citizens who 1844 01:32:57,291 --> 01:32:59,791 ultimately pay. 1845 01:32:59,791 --> 01:33:00,833 But the citizens 1846 01:33:00,833 --> 01:33:01,500 pay the other 1847 01:33:01,500 --> 01:33:03,291 4.50€ 1848 01:33:03,291 --> 01:33:04,958 through general 1849 01:33:04,958 --> 01:33:05,625 taxation 1850 01:33:05,625 --> 01:33:06,166 or through 1851 01:33:06,250 --> 01:33:07,375 local taxes or 1852 01:33:07,375 --> 01:33:07,666 whatever. 1853 01:33:08,291 --> 01:33:08,833 And that way, I 1854 01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:09,375 think, is 1855 01:33:09,375 --> 01:33:10,041 something which 1856 01:33:10,041 --> 01:33:10,750 will help 1857 01:33:10,750 --> 01:33:13,083 citizens to 1858 01:33:13,083 --> 01:33:14,541 understand 1859 01:33:14,541 --> 01:33:15,083 better. 1860 01:33:15,083 --> 01:33:15,833 We are very much 1861 01:33:15,833 --> 01:33:16,750 in a situation in 1862 01:33:16,750 --> 01:33:20,041 which we do not 1863 01:33:20,041 --> 01:33:20,708 have an idea. 1864 01:33:20,958 --> 01:33:21,708 And that creates 1865 01:33:21,708 --> 01:33:23,125 often some 1866 01:33:23,125 --> 01:33:25,416 non-realistic 1867 01:33:25,416 --> 01:33:27,375 expectations of 1868 01:33:27,375 --> 01:33:28,333 what can be done 1869 01:33:28,333 --> 01:33:29,041 in terms 1870 01:33:29,125 --> 01:33:30,125 of the delivery 1871 01:33:30,125 --> 01:33:30,541 of public 1872 01:33:30,541 --> 01:33:31,958 services, in 1873 01:33:31,958 --> 01:33:33,541 terms of of 1874 01:33:33,541 --> 01:33:35,250 paying insurance, 1875 01:33:35,541 --> 01:33:35,958 in terms 1876 01:33:35,958 --> 01:33:36,500 of all these 1877 01:33:36,500 --> 01:33:37,208 sort of things. 1878 01:33:38,250 --> 01:33:38,458 Yeah. 1879 01:33:38,458 --> 01:33:39,291 And so you would 1880 01:33:39,291 --> 01:33:41,000 say it's I mean, 1881 01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:41,916 if I generalize 1882 01:33:41,916 --> 01:33:42,583 it a bit, it's 1883 01:33:42,583 --> 01:33:43,500 about bringing 1884 01:33:43,500 --> 01:33:43,750 more 1885 01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:44,416 responsibility 1886 01:33:44,583 --> 01:33:45,500 to people, making 1887 01:33:45,500 --> 01:33:46,166 them more 1888 01:33:46,166 --> 01:33:47,875 autonomous and 1889 01:33:47,875 --> 01:33:48,958 responsible and 1890 01:33:48,958 --> 01:33:49,500 face the 1891 01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:50,000 consequences 1892 01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:50,875 of their 1893 01:33:51,416 --> 01:33:51,791 what they're 1894 01:33:51,791 --> 01:33:52,250 living with. 1895 01:33:52,833 --> 01:33:53,916 And you're I can 1896 01:33:53,916 --> 01:33:54,625 also see a link 1897 01:33:54,625 --> 01:33:55,125 with what we've 1898 01:33:55,125 --> 01:33:55,916 said before about 1899 01:33:55,916 --> 01:33:56,291 the fact 1900 01:33:56,291 --> 01:33:56,833 that we are 1901 01:33:56,833 --> 01:33:57,458 bored with 1902 01:33:57,458 --> 01:33:58,125 democracy. 1903 01:33:58,125 --> 01:33:58,625 And like we have 1904 01:33:58,625 --> 01:33:59,000 this, for 1905 01:33:59,000 --> 01:33:59,541 instance, welfare 1906 01:33:59,541 --> 01:34:00,791 state, which is 1907 01:34:00,791 --> 01:34:01,291 amazing. 1908 01:34:01,291 --> 01:34:02,208 And it's very 1909 01:34:02,208 --> 01:34:02,750 comfortable 1910 01:34:02,750 --> 01:34:03,333 in Europe. 1911 01:34:04,083 --> 01:34:04,916 And we don't 1912 01:34:04,916 --> 01:34:05,875 realize how much 1913 01:34:05,875 --> 01:34:06,541 effort is that 1914 01:34:06,541 --> 01:34:07,083 and how much 1915 01:34:07,083 --> 01:34:08,041 people had to 1916 01:34:08,041 --> 01:34:08,833 fight for this. 1917 01:34:09,583 --> 01:34:10,875 And maybe this is 1918 01:34:10,875 --> 01:34:12,333 a if we were more 1919 01:34:12,333 --> 01:34:13,041 responsible and 1920 01:34:13,041 --> 01:34:13,791 autonomous, maybe 1921 01:34:13,791 --> 01:34:14,125 we would 1922 01:34:14,125 --> 01:34:15,000 realize better. 1923 01:34:15,166 --> 01:34:15,333 Yes. 1924 01:34:15,541 --> 01:34:16,000 How important. 1925 01:34:16,250 --> 01:34:16,916 Yes, indeed. 1926 01:34:16,916 --> 01:34:17,541 For example, we 1927 01:34:17,541 --> 01:34:21,416 have got a GP 1928 01:34:21,416 --> 01:34:22,958 general doctor, 1929 01:34:23,291 --> 01:34:23,708 you know, 1930 01:34:23,708 --> 01:34:24,208 we are free. 1931 01:34:24,500 --> 01:34:25,166 And that's one 1932 01:34:25,166 --> 01:34:26,625 great achievement 1933 01:34:26,625 --> 01:34:27,500 of the Italian 1934 01:34:27,500 --> 01:34:28,500 welfare state. 1935 01:34:28,958 --> 01:34:29,625 That one of the 1936 01:34:29,625 --> 01:34:30,291 reasons why we 1937 01:34:30,291 --> 01:34:30,791 are got a very 1938 01:34:30,791 --> 01:34:32,041 high life 1939 01:34:32,041 --> 01:34:33,875 expectancy and 1940 01:34:33,875 --> 01:34:34,708 people 1941 01:34:34,708 --> 01:34:35,875 get used to 1942 01:34:35,875 --> 01:34:36,166 it. 1943 01:34:38,458 --> 01:34:39,625 But do we really 1944 01:34:39,625 --> 01:34:41,375 know how much the 1945 01:34:41,375 --> 01:34:42,041 government pays 1946 01:34:42,041 --> 01:34:42,583 for that? 1947 01:34:43,250 --> 01:34:44,291 And which part of 1948 01:34:44,291 --> 01:34:44,708 our general 1949 01:34:44,708 --> 01:34:45,208 taxation 1950 01:34:45,208 --> 01:34:46,041 goes to that? 1951 01:34:46,958 --> 01:34:47,583 For example, in 1952 01:34:47,583 --> 01:34:48,000 the United 1953 01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:48,666 Kingdom, they 1954 01:34:48,666 --> 01:34:49,291 have started to 1955 01:34:49,291 --> 01:34:50,000 release some 1956 01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:50,458 documents 1957 01:34:50,458 --> 01:34:50,875 in which 1958 01:34:50,916 --> 01:34:52,333 every time you 1959 01:34:52,333 --> 01:34:55,166 pay the income 1960 01:34:55,166 --> 01:34:57,166 tax, they give 1961 01:34:57,166 --> 01:34:58,000 you a very 1962 01:34:58,000 --> 01:34:58,500 aggregate 1963 01:34:58,500 --> 01:34:59,125 breakdown 1964 01:34:59,125 --> 01:35:00,416 of the spend 1965 01:35:00,416 --> 01:35:01,000 issues of the 1966 01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:01,333 government. 1967 01:35:02,166 --> 01:35:02,791 It's just a piece 1968 01:35:02,791 --> 01:35:03,291 of paper. 1969 01:35:03,958 --> 01:35:04,333 But that's, I 1970 01:35:04,333 --> 01:35:05,125 think, the sort 1971 01:35:05,125 --> 01:35:06,000 of things which 1972 01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:07,083 will help to get 1973 01:35:07,083 --> 01:35:07,541 more 1974 01:35:07,541 --> 01:35:09,958 participation 1975 01:35:09,958 --> 01:35:10,541 of the 1976 01:35:10,541 --> 01:35:11,000 citizens. 1977 01:35:11,958 --> 01:35:12,125 Yeah. 1978 01:35:12,583 --> 01:35:14,125 Another topic in 1979 01:35:14,125 --> 01:35:14,750 this, because I 1980 01:35:14,750 --> 01:35:15,291 mean, you're a 1981 01:35:15,291 --> 01:35:15,958 professor, you've 1982 01:35:15,958 --> 01:35:17,041 been working at 1983 01:35:17,041 --> 01:35:17,458 universities, 1984 01:35:18,583 --> 01:35:21,000 we are, it's 1985 01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:22,708 heavily funded. 1986 01:35:22,958 --> 01:35:23,333 I mean, I 1987 01:35:23,333 --> 01:35:24,541 remember seeing 1988 01:35:24,541 --> 01:35:25,375 that one student 1989 01:35:25,375 --> 01:35:26,500 was costing so 1990 01:35:26,500 --> 01:35:27,166 much money for 1991 01:35:27,166 --> 01:35:27,708 the state, at 1992 01:35:27,708 --> 01:35:28,166 least in some 1993 01:35:28,166 --> 01:35:28,500 countries, 1994 01:35:28,791 --> 01:35:29,208 depending on the 1995 01:35:29,208 --> 01:35:29,625 country, of 1996 01:35:29,625 --> 01:35:29,958 course, but 1997 01:35:29,958 --> 01:35:30,375 forefront. 1998 01:35:31,041 --> 01:35:31,791 Like it's a huge 1999 01:35:31,791 --> 01:35:32,625 amount that I 2000 01:35:32,625 --> 01:35:33,000 want you to 2001 01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:34,458 actually, I was 2002 01:35:34,458 --> 01:35:34,583 not 2003 01:35:34,583 --> 01:35:35,666 suspecting at all. 2004 01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:36,875 That's a 2005 01:35:36,875 --> 01:35:37,875 good point. 2006 01:35:38,500 --> 01:35:39,416 Perhaps if you 2007 01:35:39,416 --> 01:35:39,875 would have known 2008 01:35:39,875 --> 01:35:41,041 earlier, you 2009 01:35:41,041 --> 01:35:41,500 would have been 2010 01:35:41,500 --> 01:35:42,541 more demanding 2011 01:35:42,541 --> 01:35:43,375 towards your 2012 01:35:43,375 --> 01:35:45,083 professors and 2013 01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:45,666 even towards 2014 01:35:45,666 --> 01:35:46,291 infrastructure, 2015 01:35:46,291 --> 01:35:47,208 you know. 2016 01:35:47,916 --> 01:35:48,291 To you. 2017 01:35:48,875 --> 01:35:49,500 Yes, of course. 2018 01:35:49,500 --> 01:35:50,375 Because so much 2019 01:35:50,375 --> 01:35:51,791 you expect that 2020 01:35:51,791 --> 01:35:53,208 professors 2021 01:35:53,208 --> 01:35:54,125 respond to 2022 01:35:54,125 --> 01:35:54,958 students' emails, 2023 01:35:55,791 --> 01:35:56,541 or you expect 2024 01:35:56,541 --> 01:35:57,625 that they go in 2025 01:35:57,625 --> 01:35:58,583 class on time, 2026 01:35:58,916 --> 01:35:59,708 they then speak 2027 01:35:59,708 --> 01:36:00,416 on the mobile 2028 01:36:00,416 --> 01:36:00,958 when they're 2029 01:36:00,958 --> 01:36:01,541 lecturing 2030 01:36:01,541 --> 01:36:02,500 and they 2031 01:36:02,625 --> 01:36:03,625 update into the 2032 01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:04,375 field, you know, 2033 01:36:04,750 --> 01:36:05,000 those 2034 01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:05,583 other things. 2035 01:36:06,541 --> 01:36:09,125 Okay, so this is 2036 01:36:09,125 --> 01:36:10,625 a way, I mean, 2037 01:36:10,625 --> 01:36:10,916 here we're 2038 01:36:10,916 --> 01:36:11,541 speaking mostly 2039 01:36:11,541 --> 01:36:12,625 for democratic 2040 01:36:12,625 --> 01:36:13,500 countries, 2041 01:36:13,500 --> 01:36:13,750 right? 2042 01:36:15,041 --> 01:36:17,000 For non-democratic 2043 01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:18,250 countries, do you 2044 01:36:18,250 --> 01:36:18,666 think that there 2045 01:36:18,666 --> 01:36:21,916 should be, I 2046 01:36:21,916 --> 01:36:23,041 mean, do you wish 2047 01:36:23,041 --> 01:36:23,291 that 2048 01:36:23,291 --> 01:36:23,916 non-democratic 2049 01:36:23,916 --> 01:36:24,750 countries become 2050 01:36:24,750 --> 01:36:25,458 democratic? 2051 01:36:25,458 --> 01:36:25,916 I think yes, 2052 01:36:26,125 --> 01:36:26,541 because you would 2053 01:36:26,541 --> 01:36:27,000 like to 2054 01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:27,125 keep that. 2055 01:36:27,125 --> 01:36:27,625 Of course, 2056 01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:28,458 of course. 2057 01:36:28,666 --> 01:36:29,000 But that's, I 2058 01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:29,625 mean, again, to 2059 01:36:29,625 --> 01:36:30,333 go back to the 2060 01:36:30,333 --> 01:36:31,000 current point on 2061 01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:31,333 democracy 2062 01:36:31,333 --> 01:36:32,208 model, that's, 2063 01:36:32,208 --> 01:36:32,625 I think, it's 2064 01:36:32,625 --> 01:36:33,500 very important to 2065 01:36:33,500 --> 01:36:34,083 understand. 2066 01:36:34,916 --> 01:36:36,875 I think that all 2067 01:36:36,875 --> 01:36:38,166 countries can 2068 01:36:38,166 --> 01:36:38,916 improve the 2069 01:36:38,916 --> 01:36:39,291 democratic 2070 01:36:39,291 --> 01:36:39,791 process. 2071 01:36:40,625 --> 01:36:41,125 Of course, it's 2072 01:36:41,125 --> 01:36:41,625 not the same 2073 01:36:41,625 --> 01:36:42,250 thing if you are 2074 01:36:42,250 --> 01:36:43,791 in Sweden or if 2075 01:36:43,791 --> 01:36:45,458 you are in China. 2076 01:36:46,500 --> 01:36:47,041 But that doesn't 2077 01:36:47,041 --> 01:36:48,125 mean that the 2078 01:36:48,125 --> 01:36:49,333 Swedish model is 2079 01:36:49,333 --> 01:36:50,250 the best and that 2080 01:36:50,250 --> 01:36:51,625 should fit all 2081 01:36:51,625 --> 01:36:52,083 the countries 2082 01:36:52,083 --> 01:36:52,416 of the 2083 01:36:52,416 --> 01:36:53,375 world, you know. 2084 01:36:54,583 --> 01:36:56,375 And I think that 2085 01:36:56,375 --> 01:36:57,291 all countries 2086 01:36:57,291 --> 01:36:59,250 will benefit to 2087 01:36:59,250 --> 01:37:01,958 develop some ways 2088 01:37:01,958 --> 01:37:03,083 of democracy. 2089 01:37:03,083 --> 01:37:03,708 But this should 2090 01:37:03,708 --> 01:37:04,125 be done 2091 01:37:04,125 --> 01:37:04,791 internally 2092 01:37:04,791 --> 01:37:05,833 through 2093 01:37:05,833 --> 01:37:06,625 their forces. 2094 01:37:07,541 --> 01:37:08,333 I mean, it's not 2095 01:37:08,333 --> 01:37:10,208 for me or anybody 2096 01:37:10,208 --> 01:37:11,500 else to tell to 2097 01:37:11,500 --> 01:37:13,166 the Chinese what 2098 01:37:13,166 --> 01:37:15,000 they should do or 2099 01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:15,666 to the Russians. 2100 01:37:16,041 --> 01:37:16,250 Yeah. 2101 01:37:16,500 --> 01:37:17,541 We can also, the 2102 01:37:17,541 --> 01:37:18,250 only thing we can 2103 01:37:18,250 --> 01:37:18,958 do is to provide 2104 01:37:18,958 --> 01:37:19,791 good examples. 2105 01:37:21,208 --> 01:37:21,916 And if we do, 2106 01:37:22,958 --> 01:37:23,750 perhaps it would 2107 01:37:23,750 --> 01:37:24,375 be easier to 2108 01:37:24,375 --> 01:37:25,000 convince the 2109 01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:25,750 Chinese or the 2110 01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:27,125 Russians that 2111 01:37:27,208 --> 01:37:28,875 they have an 2112 01:37:28,875 --> 01:37:29,875 advantage to 2113 01:37:29,875 --> 01:37:30,208 develop 2114 01:37:30,208 --> 01:37:30,750 democracy. 2115 01:37:31,416 --> 01:37:32,750 Which makes the 2116 01:37:32,750 --> 01:37:34,041 decrease of 2117 01:37:34,041 --> 01:37:34,666 support, the 2118 01:37:34,666 --> 01:37:35,291 internal decrease 2119 01:37:35,291 --> 01:37:35,875 of support in 2120 01:37:35,875 --> 01:37:36,291 democracy 2121 01:37:36,291 --> 01:37:37,000 even more 2122 01:37:37,416 --> 01:37:38,375 important because 2123 01:37:38,375 --> 01:37:39,833 we have less of a 2124 01:37:39,833 --> 01:37:40,541 model for 2125 01:37:40,541 --> 01:37:42,208 the others. 2126 01:37:42,208 --> 01:37:42,333 Yes. 2127 01:37:42,333 --> 01:37:43,875 But even if this 2128 01:37:43,875 --> 01:37:45,083 is the case, when 2129 01:37:45,083 --> 01:37:46,125 we go to 2130 01:37:46,125 --> 01:37:46,583 non-democratic 2131 01:37:46,583 --> 01:37:48,000 countries, we 2132 01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:48,583 really see the 2133 01:37:48,583 --> 01:37:49,083 difference, 2134 01:37:49,083 --> 01:37:49,458 you know. 2135 01:37:50,333 --> 01:37:50,916 And that, I 2136 01:37:50,916 --> 01:37:51,208 think, is 2137 01:37:51,208 --> 01:37:52,000 important in 2138 01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:52,750 terms of welfare, 2139 01:37:53,083 --> 01:37:53,500 in terms 2140 01:37:53,500 --> 01:37:54,125 of wages. 2141 01:37:54,791 --> 01:37:56,166 I mean, there is 2142 01:37:56,166 --> 01:37:57,041 a lot to gain 2143 01:37:57,041 --> 01:38:00,208 with democracy. 2144 01:38:01,666 --> 01:38:02,208 That's what I 2145 01:38:02,208 --> 01:38:02,708 call the 2146 01:38:02,708 --> 01:38:03,125 democratic 2147 01:38:03,125 --> 01:38:03,750 dividend, 2148 01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:04,500 you know. 2149 01:38:05,541 --> 01:38:05,791 And the 2150 01:38:05,791 --> 01:38:06,000 democratic 2151 01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:06,750 dividend is 2152 01:38:06,750 --> 01:38:07,833 important because 2153 01:38:07,833 --> 01:38:08,625 in democracy, 2154 01:38:08,958 --> 01:38:10,791 salary is higher, 2155 01:38:12,083 --> 01:38:12,708 human rights 2156 01:38:12,708 --> 01:38:13,000 are more 2157 01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:13,958 respected, so 2158 01:38:13,958 --> 01:38:14,375 there are a lot 2159 01:38:14,375 --> 01:38:15,083 of advantages. 2160 01:38:16,291 --> 01:38:18,541 And I mean, you 2161 01:38:18,541 --> 01:38:19,291 say that it needs 2162 01:38:19,291 --> 01:38:19,708 to come 2163 01:38:19,708 --> 01:38:20,666 spontaneously 2164 01:38:20,666 --> 01:38:21,750 from them and not 2165 01:38:21,750 --> 01:38:22,333 from external 2166 01:38:22,333 --> 01:38:22,750 pressure. 2167 01:38:24,375 --> 01:38:24,750 I'm thinking 2168 01:38:24,750 --> 01:38:25,500 still, I mean, I 2169 01:38:25,500 --> 01:38:26,375 spent one year in 2170 01:38:26,375 --> 01:38:28,375 China and there I 2171 01:38:28,375 --> 01:38:28,833 could not 2172 01:38:28,833 --> 01:38:29,500 really speak 2173 01:38:29,500 --> 01:38:30,166 about it or 2174 01:38:30,166 --> 01:38:30,500 whatever. 2175 01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:32,000 But speaking with 2176 01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:32,875 many Chinese 2177 01:38:32,875 --> 01:38:34,000 people, I don't 2178 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:35,000 know what is also 2179 01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:35,458 100% 2180 01:38:35,916 --> 01:38:37,583 honest or not, 2181 01:38:37,833 --> 01:38:38,666 but I think that 2182 01:38:38,666 --> 01:38:39,666 many of them are 2183 01:38:39,666 --> 01:38:41,125 actually very 2184 01:38:41,125 --> 01:38:43,041 happy with their 2185 01:38:43,041 --> 01:38:43,833 regime and 2186 01:38:43,833 --> 01:38:44,333 don't think 2187 01:38:44,333 --> 01:38:45,000 that it should be 2188 01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:45,625 moved, that 2189 01:38:45,625 --> 01:38:46,041 they think. 2190 01:38:46,583 --> 01:38:47,500 Mostly what I was 2191 01:38:47,500 --> 01:38:48,333 hearing is that, 2192 01:38:48,625 --> 01:38:49,416 okay, democracy 2193 01:38:49,416 --> 01:38:50,291 maybe is good, 2194 01:38:50,791 --> 01:38:52,166 but not for such 2195 01:38:52,166 --> 01:38:52,916 a big country. 2196 01:38:52,916 --> 01:38:53,541 When it's such a 2197 01:38:53,541 --> 01:38:54,625 big country, we 2198 01:38:54,625 --> 01:38:56,125 need to have a 2199 01:38:56,125 --> 01:38:57,083 dictatorship. 2200 01:38:59,250 --> 01:39:02,583 China is a unique 2201 01:39:02,583 --> 01:39:04,208 case by many 2202 01:39:04,208 --> 01:39:05,208 aspects. 2203 01:39:05,416 --> 01:39:06,250 For example, it's 2204 01:39:06,250 --> 01:39:06,666 very deep. 2205 01:39:07,375 --> 01:39:09,041 I'm not aware of 2206 01:39:09,041 --> 01:39:09,958 any historical 2207 01:39:09,958 --> 01:39:11,208 case in which a 2208 01:39:11,208 --> 01:39:12,083 country has grown 2209 01:39:12,083 --> 01:39:13,583 10% a year. 2210 01:39:13,666 --> 01:39:15,250 GDP has grown 10% 2211 01:39:15,708 --> 01:39:17,458 a year for two 2212 01:39:17,458 --> 01:39:17,916 decades. 2213 01:39:20,041 --> 01:39:20,750 In a country 2214 01:39:20,750 --> 01:39:21,958 which had large, 2215 01:39:21,958 --> 01:39:23,291 large parts of 2216 01:39:23,291 --> 01:39:24,208 poverty, you 2217 01:39:24,208 --> 01:39:25,000 know, and 2218 01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:25,625 therefore I 2219 01:39:25,625 --> 01:39:26,416 understand 2220 01:39:26,666 --> 01:39:28,333 very well that 2221 01:39:28,333 --> 01:39:31,791 why the Chinese 2222 01:39:31,791 --> 01:39:32,708 government has a 2223 01:39:32,708 --> 01:39:33,291 strong support 2224 01:39:33,291 --> 01:39:35,166 because it's a 2225 01:39:35,166 --> 01:39:35,375 government 2226 01:39:35,500 --> 01:39:36,041 which has managed 2227 01:39:36,041 --> 01:39:37,250 to deliver an 2228 01:39:37,250 --> 01:39:38,166 enormous amount 2229 01:39:38,166 --> 01:39:39,666 of benefits to 2230 01:39:39,666 --> 01:39:40,541 its population. 2231 01:39:41,666 --> 01:39:44,125 Still, I do not 2232 01:39:44,125 --> 01:39:45,083 necessarily say, 2233 01:39:45,583 --> 01:39:46,000 and it's a 2234 01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:46,541 government which 2235 01:39:46,541 --> 01:39:47,250 when they decide 2236 01:39:47,250 --> 01:39:47,791 to do something, 2237 01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:48,500 they do it. 2238 01:39:49,083 --> 01:39:49,958 If they decide to 2239 01:39:49,958 --> 01:39:50,416 create an 2240 01:39:50,416 --> 01:39:51,708 underground in 2241 01:39:51,708 --> 01:39:52,541 the city of 15 2242 01:39:52,541 --> 01:39:53,416 million people in 2243 01:39:53,416 --> 01:39:54,000 10 years, 2244 01:39:54,958 --> 01:39:55,666 at the end of the 2245 01:39:55,666 --> 01:39:56,416 10th year, the 2246 01:39:56,416 --> 01:39:56,833 underground 2247 01:39:56,833 --> 01:39:57,500 is there. 2248 01:39:58,333 --> 01:39:59,416 And this cannot 2249 01:39:59,416 --> 01:40:01,250 be said in many 2250 01:40:01,250 --> 01:40:01,875 of the countries 2251 01:40:01,875 --> 01:40:02,500 of the world. 2252 01:40:04,041 --> 01:40:05,125 Still, I think 2253 01:40:05,125 --> 01:40:06,958 that China will 2254 01:40:06,958 --> 01:40:08,000 also benefit from 2255 01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:08,500 democracy. 2256 01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:09,791 For example, at 2257 01:40:09,791 --> 01:40:10,166 the moment, 2258 01:40:10,708 --> 01:40:12,083 China, the 2259 01:40:12,083 --> 01:40:14,708 average paid 2260 01:40:14,708 --> 01:40:16,583 holiday per year 2261 01:40:16,583 --> 01:40:17,500 are 5 days. 2262 01:40:19,125 --> 01:40:19,708 In Italy, there 2263 01:40:19,708 --> 01:40:20,791 are 25 days. 2264 01:40:21,875 --> 01:40:22,083 The Chinese 2265 01:40:22,083 --> 01:40:23,000 people understand 2266 01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:23,666 the difference, 2267 01:40:23,666 --> 01:40:26,041 you know, and 2268 01:40:26,041 --> 01:40:27,083 they also 2269 01:40:27,083 --> 01:40:27,875 understand that 2270 01:40:27,875 --> 01:40:28,458 sometimes 2271 01:40:29,041 --> 01:40:29,708 some of their 2272 01:40:29,708 --> 01:40:31,458 rights can be 2273 01:40:31,458 --> 01:40:32,916 destroyed. 2274 01:40:34,083 --> 01:40:34,458 And therefore, 2275 01:40:34,458 --> 01:40:35,500 you know, it's 2276 01:40:35,500 --> 01:40:37,041 important to show 2277 01:40:37,041 --> 01:40:37,708 to the Chinese 2278 01:40:37,708 --> 01:40:39,958 that they can do 2279 01:40:39,958 --> 01:40:40,375 something 2280 01:40:41,208 --> 01:40:41,458 better. 2281 01:40:42,166 --> 01:40:42,750 And on the other 2282 01:40:42,750 --> 01:40:43,500 hand, I think 2283 01:40:43,500 --> 01:40:44,583 that also we can 2284 01:40:44,583 --> 01:40:45,166 learn something 2285 01:40:45,166 --> 01:40:45,583 from the 2286 01:40:45,583 --> 01:40:46,750 Chinese, for 2287 01:40:46,791 --> 01:40:47,625 example, in terms 2288 01:40:47,625 --> 01:40:48,625 of delivering 2289 01:40:48,625 --> 01:40:50,666 what is decided. 2290 01:40:52,083 --> 01:40:53,333 Let me also say 2291 01:40:53,333 --> 01:40:54,250 that China is a 2292 01:40:54,250 --> 01:40:55,291 peculiar country 2293 01:40:55,291 --> 01:40:56,333 because it has 2294 01:40:56,333 --> 01:40:57,750 one party system, 2295 01:40:57,750 --> 01:40:58,250 of course, 2296 01:40:59,166 --> 01:41:00,958 but often the 2297 01:41:00,958 --> 01:41:01,625 decision making 2298 01:41:01,625 --> 01:41:02,791 process is very 2299 01:41:02,791 --> 01:41:04,333 complex at the 2300 01:41:04,333 --> 01:41:05,000 local level 2301 01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:06,833 within the party, 2302 01:41:06,833 --> 01:41:07,208 within the 2303 01:41:07,208 --> 01:41:07,625 community. 2304 01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:08,500 And therefore, 2305 01:41:08,500 --> 01:41:09,041 they consult 2306 01:41:09,041 --> 01:41:09,666 each other. 2307 01:41:10,458 --> 01:41:11,125 And once they 2308 01:41:11,125 --> 01:41:11,750 consult each 2309 01:41:11,750 --> 01:41:12,208 other, they 2310 01:41:12,208 --> 01:41:13,250 study, and then 2311 01:41:13,250 --> 01:41:14,791 they decide, and 2312 01:41:14,791 --> 01:41:15,708 then the 2313 01:41:15,708 --> 01:41:16,083 situation 2314 01:41:16,458 --> 01:41:18,583 is to apply the 2315 01:41:18,583 --> 01:41:19,041 decision. 2316 01:41:20,208 --> 01:41:20,875 So I would say 2317 01:41:20,875 --> 01:41:21,750 that there are 2318 01:41:21,750 --> 01:41:23,416 some studies 2319 01:41:23,416 --> 01:41:24,875 about the 2320 01:41:24,875 --> 01:41:25,708 political process 2321 01:41:25,708 --> 01:41:26,250 in China, 2322 01:41:26,250 --> 01:41:26,875 especially 2323 01:41:27,666 --> 01:41:29,583 15 years ago, in 2324 01:41:29,583 --> 01:41:30,875 which we've shown 2325 01:41:30,875 --> 01:41:31,833 that there was a 2326 01:41:31,833 --> 01:41:32,333 consultation 2327 01:41:32,333 --> 01:41:33,083 process. 2328 01:41:34,375 --> 01:41:34,875 Well, maybe you 2329 01:41:34,875 --> 01:41:36,291 are drifting us a 2330 01:41:36,291 --> 01:41:38,625 bit further too 2331 01:41:38,625 --> 01:41:39,708 far from our 2332 01:41:39,708 --> 01:41:40,666 original purpose. 2333 01:41:41,916 --> 01:41:42,750 There is also, I 2334 01:41:42,750 --> 01:41:43,291 think in this 2335 01:41:43,291 --> 01:41:44,083 case, interesting 2336 01:41:44,083 --> 01:41:45,166 comparison is 2337 01:41:45,166 --> 01:41:45,625 with India 2338 01:41:45,625 --> 01:41:46,791 because same 2339 01:41:46,791 --> 01:41:47,333 population, 2340 01:41:47,750 --> 01:41:48,333 but it's 2341 01:41:48,333 --> 01:41:49,125 democratic. 2342 01:41:50,583 --> 01:41:51,833 Again, India is 2343 01:41:51,833 --> 01:41:52,500 another very 2344 01:41:52,500 --> 01:41:53,500 interesting case. 2345 01:41:53,875 --> 01:41:54,791 It's a democratic 2346 01:41:54,791 --> 01:41:55,875 country, but 2347 01:41:55,875 --> 01:41:56,500 still there is 2348 01:41:56,500 --> 01:41:58,625 local poverty and 2349 01:41:58,625 --> 01:42:01,625 a totally 2350 01:42:01,625 --> 01:42:02,583 different system 2351 01:42:02,791 --> 01:42:03,000 of 2352 01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:03,958 infrastructures. 2353 01:42:05,250 --> 01:42:06,041 In China, you 2354 01:42:06,041 --> 01:42:06,916 really see that 2355 01:42:06,916 --> 01:42:07,375 there are 2356 01:42:07,375 --> 01:42:08,708 airports, trains, 2357 01:42:09,041 --> 01:42:10,541 schools, roads, 2358 01:42:11,916 --> 01:42:12,166 and in 2359 01:42:12,166 --> 01:42:12,958 China, it's 2360 01:42:12,958 --> 01:42:14,000 more likely that 2361 01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:15,000 people are 2362 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:15,958 searching for 2363 01:42:15,958 --> 01:42:16,250 their own 2364 01:42:16,250 --> 01:42:16,666 personal 2365 01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:17,416 advantages. 2366 01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:18,166 Yeah. 2367 01:42:18,375 --> 01:42:19,708 So that brings us 2368 01:42:19,708 --> 01:42:20,666 also back to what 2369 01:42:20,666 --> 01:42:21,125 you were saying 2370 01:42:21,125 --> 01:42:21,791 at the beginning, 2371 01:42:21,791 --> 01:42:22,041 from what 2372 01:42:22,041 --> 01:42:22,458 you say, 2373 01:42:22,791 --> 01:42:24,208 that the progress 2374 01:42:24,208 --> 01:42:25,458 you made and how 2375 01:42:25,458 --> 01:42:26,791 much you are able 2376 01:42:26,791 --> 01:42:28,208 to deliver, you 2377 01:42:28,208 --> 01:42:29,041 say, public goods 2378 01:42:29,041 --> 01:42:30,250 for the people, 2379 01:42:30,541 --> 01:42:31,291 that counts a lot 2380 01:42:31,291 --> 01:42:32,416 for the people 2381 01:42:32,416 --> 01:42:32,875 supporting 2382 01:42:32,875 --> 01:42:33,375 democracy. 2383 01:42:33,666 --> 01:42:34,250 So there is a 2384 01:42:34,250 --> 01:42:35,250 huge work 2385 01:42:35,250 --> 01:42:36,750 also there. 2386 01:42:37,375 --> 01:42:37,791 Definitely. 2387 01:42:38,416 --> 01:42:38,625 Definitely. 2388 01:42:39,208 --> 01:42:39,791 If you want to 2389 01:42:39,791 --> 01:42:41,416 defend the idea 2390 01:42:41,416 --> 01:42:42,291 of democracy, 2391 01:42:42,583 --> 01:42:43,625 democracy needs 2392 01:42:43,625 --> 01:42:46,291 to work not well 2393 01:42:46,291 --> 01:42:49,166 in an excellent 2394 01:42:49,250 --> 01:42:50,333 form because they 2395 01:42:50,333 --> 01:42:52,125 should be much 2396 01:42:52,125 --> 01:42:53,500 better than 2397 01:42:53,500 --> 01:42:54,500 alternative forms 2398 01:42:54,500 --> 01:42:55,083 of government. 2399 01:42:55,791 --> 01:42:56,458 We cannot be 2400 01:42:56,458 --> 01:42:57,791 idealistic and to 2401 01:42:57,791 --> 01:42:58,416 think that we 2402 01:42:58,416 --> 01:42:59,083 just pull 2403 01:42:59,083 --> 01:42:59,958 democracy because 2404 01:42:59,958 --> 01:43:01,000 it provides 2405 01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:01,750 human rights. 2406 01:43:02,250 --> 01:43:02,583 That is 2407 01:43:02,583 --> 01:43:03,583 important, but 2408 01:43:03,583 --> 01:43:04,333 it's not the only 2409 01:43:04,333 --> 01:43:04,958 condition. 2410 01:43:06,041 --> 01:43:06,250 Okay. 2411 01:43:06,708 --> 01:43:09,291 I have one last 2412 01:43:09,291 --> 01:43:10,291 question and then 2413 01:43:10,291 --> 01:43:11,125 I will ask you 2414 01:43:11,125 --> 01:43:12,125 the last word if 2415 01:43:12,125 --> 01:43:12,541 you want. 2416 01:43:13,541 --> 01:43:14,166 My last question 2417 01:43:14,166 --> 01:43:16,166 is, we've spoken 2418 01:43:16,166 --> 01:43:17,666 a lot at the 2419 01:43:17,666 --> 01:43:19,083 societal level, 2420 01:43:19,375 --> 01:43:19,916 at the 2421 01:43:19,916 --> 01:43:20,958 community level, 2422 01:43:20,958 --> 01:43:22,666 let's say, and do 2423 01:43:22,666 --> 01:43:23,125 you think that 2424 01:43:23,125 --> 01:43:24,000 there's anything 2425 01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:25,041 that one person 2426 01:43:25,041 --> 01:43:25,916 can do at the 2427 01:43:25,916 --> 01:43:26,708 individual level 2428 01:43:26,916 --> 01:43:27,500 for a 2429 01:43:27,500 --> 01:43:27,916 cosmopolitan 2430 01:43:27,916 --> 01:43:28,333 democracy? 2431 01:43:29,041 --> 01:43:29,583 Well, yes, 2432 01:43:29,583 --> 01:43:30,000 of course. 2433 01:43:30,333 --> 01:43:32,083 I mean, there are 2434 01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:32,541 a lot of things 2435 01:43:32,541 --> 01:43:33,291 that can be done. 2436 01:43:33,833 --> 01:43:34,291 The first thing 2437 01:43:34,291 --> 01:43:35,416 is to participate 2438 01:43:35,416 --> 01:43:36,791 to citizens' 2439 01:43:36,791 --> 01:43:38,500 networks in 2440 01:43:38,500 --> 01:43:39,625 specific domains, 2441 01:43:40,916 --> 01:43:41,916 which might 2442 01:43:41,916 --> 01:43:43,041 be human rights 2443 01:43:43,041 --> 01:43:43,708 campaigns, 2444 01:43:44,416 --> 01:43:44,833 ecological 2445 01:43:44,833 --> 01:43:48,000 campaigns, or any 2446 01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:49,083 form of social 2447 01:43:49,083 --> 01:43:49,833 activism, 2448 01:43:50,375 --> 01:43:51,166 trying to 2449 01:43:51,166 --> 01:43:52,000 link with others. 2450 01:43:54,291 --> 01:43:55,125 Getting people 2451 01:43:55,125 --> 01:43:56,125 connected and 2452 01:43:56,125 --> 01:43:57,416 committed in the 2453 01:43:57,416 --> 01:43:58,208 politics as we 2454 01:43:58,208 --> 01:43:58,375 were 2455 01:43:58,375 --> 01:43:59,541 discussing before. 2456 01:43:59,541 --> 01:43:59,875 Yes, and that's 2457 01:43:59,875 --> 01:44:00,750 of course, with 2458 01:44:00,750 --> 01:44:02,125 the current 2459 01:44:02,125 --> 01:44:02,958 information and 2460 01:44:02,958 --> 01:44:03,333 communication 2461 01:44:03,333 --> 01:44:04,208 technologies, 2462 01:44:04,208 --> 01:44:04,833 it's much easier 2463 01:44:04,833 --> 01:44:05,541 than it used to 2464 01:44:05,541 --> 01:44:06,625 be in my 2465 01:44:06,625 --> 01:44:07,208 own time. 2466 01:44:07,458 --> 01:44:08,500 It's very easy to 2467 01:44:08,500 --> 01:44:09,958 create a network, 2468 01:44:10,416 --> 01:44:11,208 which I would say 2469 01:44:11,208 --> 01:44:12,333 should also be 2470 01:44:12,333 --> 01:44:12,958 associated 2471 01:44:12,958 --> 01:44:14,333 to deliver 2472 01:44:14,583 --> 01:44:14,916 something. 2473 01:44:15,625 --> 01:44:16,875 You know, a 2474 01:44:16,875 --> 01:44:17,916 campaign specific 2475 01:44:17,916 --> 01:44:19,583 on some 2476 01:44:19,583 --> 01:44:20,958 ecological human 2477 01:44:20,958 --> 01:44:22,208 rights goals and 2478 01:44:22,208 --> 01:44:22,875 so on that 2479 01:44:22,875 --> 01:44:23,500 you target 2480 01:44:23,500 --> 01:44:24,458 decision making, 2481 01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,166 decision makers, 2482 01:44:26,500 --> 01:44:26,833 as well as 2483 01:44:26,833 --> 01:44:27,500 decision making, 2484 01:44:27,791 --> 01:44:28,375 and you try 2485 01:44:28,375 --> 01:44:29,333 to involve 2486 01:44:29,916 --> 01:44:32,000 more players into 2487 01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:32,916 the decision 2488 01:44:32,916 --> 01:44:33,916 making process. 2489 01:44:34,458 --> 01:44:35,500 And that often is 2490 01:44:35,500 --> 01:44:36,208 very effective. 2491 01:44:36,791 --> 01:44:37,833 Why do you add 2492 01:44:37,833 --> 01:44:38,250 the precision 2493 01:44:38,250 --> 01:44:39,000 that it should be 2494 01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:40,208 specific to one 2495 01:44:40,208 --> 01:44:41,541 goal and deliver 2496 01:44:41,541 --> 01:44:42,291 one time? 2497 01:44:42,583 --> 01:44:43,375 Well, I mean, if 2498 01:44:43,375 --> 01:44:43,833 we are thinking 2499 01:44:43,833 --> 01:44:45,625 about focus 2500 01:44:45,625 --> 01:44:47,375 groups, sometimes 2501 01:44:47,375 --> 01:44:48,125 they start in 2502 01:44:48,125 --> 01:44:48,750 that way, 2503 01:44:48,750 --> 01:44:49,250 but sometimes 2504 01:44:49,250 --> 01:44:50,041 they can also 2505 01:44:50,041 --> 01:44:52,250 participate in 2506 01:44:52,250 --> 01:44:53,500 more campaigns, 2507 01:44:53,500 --> 01:44:53,833 you know. 2508 01:44:54,583 --> 01:44:56,375 And if, for 2509 01:44:56,375 --> 01:44:57,083 example, if you 2510 01:44:57,083 --> 01:44:57,958 start with one 2511 01:44:57,958 --> 01:44:59,916 goal, it's more 2512 01:44:59,916 --> 01:45:00,833 likely that you 2513 01:45:00,833 --> 01:45:01,333 will manage 2514 01:45:01,375 --> 01:45:03,041 to bridge and to 2515 01:45:03,041 --> 01:45:05,083 include citizens 2516 01:45:05,083 --> 01:45:06,291 which belong to 2517 01:45:06,291 --> 01:45:07,000 different states. 2518 01:45:08,083 --> 01:45:08,541 And therefore, 2519 01:45:08,541 --> 01:45:09,166 for example, if 2520 01:45:09,166 --> 01:45:10,083 you think about 2521 01:45:10,083 --> 01:45:11,291 human rights and 2522 01:45:11,291 --> 01:45:11,875 women 2523 01:45:11,875 --> 01:45:13,375 rights, you can 2524 01:45:13,375 --> 01:45:14,083 perhaps involve 2525 01:45:14,083 --> 01:45:15,125 also people in 2526 01:45:15,125 --> 01:45:16,291 Arab countries in 2527 01:45:16,291 --> 01:45:18,416 which these sort 2528 01:45:18,416 --> 01:45:19,291 of things are 2529 01:45:19,291 --> 01:45:19,708 forbidden. 2530 01:45:20,833 --> 01:45:21,291 So that's 2531 01:45:21,291 --> 01:45:21,708 interesting. 2532 01:45:21,708 --> 01:45:22,000 I had not 2533 01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:22,833 realized, but so 2534 01:45:22,833 --> 01:45:24,041 you have this 2535 01:45:24,041 --> 01:45:26,083 global scope in 2536 01:45:26,083 --> 01:45:26,625 mind when you 2537 01:45:26,625 --> 01:45:27,500 were getting 2538 01:45:27,500 --> 01:45:28,458 committed. 2539 01:45:28,458 --> 01:45:29,083 Why not also 2540 01:45:29,083 --> 01:45:30,416 doing it as a 2541 01:45:30,416 --> 01:45:30,875 group with 2542 01:45:30,875 --> 01:45:31,708 different 2543 01:45:31,708 --> 01:45:32,666 countries, like 2544 01:45:32,666 --> 01:45:32,875 some 2545 01:45:32,875 --> 01:45:33,500 international? 2546 01:45:33,708 --> 01:45:33,916 Indeed. 2547 01:45:34,625 --> 01:45:34,958 But I repeat, 2548 01:45:35,500 --> 01:45:36,791 democracy, if 2549 01:45:36,791 --> 01:45:40,583 they want to be a 2550 01:45:40,583 --> 01:45:42,083 good model and a 2551 01:45:42,083 --> 01:45:42,708 larger 2552 01:45:42,708 --> 01:45:45,000 geographic scope, 2553 01:45:46,083 --> 01:45:46,708 they cannot do it 2554 01:45:46,708 --> 01:45:47,166 with war. 2555 01:45:48,166 --> 01:45:49,041 They should do it 2556 01:45:49,041 --> 01:45:49,333 with true 2557 01:45:49,333 --> 01:45:49,791 persuasion. 2558 01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:51,375 They should do it 2559 01:45:51,375 --> 01:45:52,333 by convincing 2560 01:45:52,333 --> 01:45:53,583 people of all the 2561 01:45:53,583 --> 01:45:56,083 countries that it 2562 01:45:56,083 --> 01:45:56,583 is in the 2563 01:45:56,583 --> 01:45:56,958 interest 2564 01:45:57,291 --> 01:45:57,833 to become a 2565 01:45:57,833 --> 01:45:58,125 democratic. 2566 01:45:59,375 --> 01:46:00,000 Well, many thanks 2567 01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:00,416 for this 2568 01:46:00,416 --> 01:46:01,000 conversation. 2569 01:46:01,625 --> 01:46:01,916 Thank you 2570 01:46:01,916 --> 01:46:02,250 very much. 2571 01:46:02,583 --> 01:46:03,166 If you want to 2572 01:46:03,166 --> 01:46:04,583 have a last word 2573 01:46:04,583 --> 01:46:05,625 or a summary or 2574 01:46:05,625 --> 01:46:06,166 one thing. 2575 01:46:06,166 --> 01:46:07,041 I think we have 2576 01:46:07,041 --> 01:46:07,708 covered it. 2577 01:46:07,708 --> 01:46:08,541 We covered it. 2578 01:46:08,791 --> 01:46:09,000 Okay. 2579 01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:09,208 Thank you 2580 01:46:09,208 --> 01:46:09,750 very much. 2581 01:46:09,750 --> 01:46:10,083 Thank you very much. 2582 01:46:10,083 --> 01:46:11,333 See you for the 2583 01:46:11,333 --> 01:46:11,833 next episode. 2584 01:46:12,208 --> 01:46:12,541 Thank you. 2585 01:46:12,833 --> 01:46:13,708 Thank you for 2586 01:46:13,708 --> 01:46:14,208 having listened 2587 01:46:14,208 --> 01:46:15,041 to this episode. 2588 01:46:15,416 --> 01:46:16,041 This is the kind 2589 01:46:16,041 --> 01:46:16,833 of episode which 2590 01:46:16,833 --> 01:46:17,750 will, without any 2591 01:46:17,750 --> 01:46:18,500 doubt, trigger a 2592 01:46:18,500 --> 01:46:19,166 lot of comments. 2593 01:46:19,583 --> 01:46:20,041 So I'm looking 2594 01:46:20,041 --> 01:46:20,833 forward to have 2595 01:46:20,833 --> 01:46:21,458 this conversation 2596 01:46:21,458 --> 01:46:22,083 on the 2597 01:46:22,083 --> 01:46:22,666 social media. 2598 01:46:23,166 --> 01:46:23,583 And the next 2599 01:46:23,583 --> 01:46:24,291 episode will be 2600 01:46:24,291 --> 01:46:25,041 published on the 2601 01:46:25,041 --> 01:46:25,916 1st of February.